Building demolished from the top down.

[Java Man]

It is quite noticable the way you address some points and ignore others to the point of taking them out of context.
Is that on purpose?

Yes of course it is. I'm not wasting my time on pointless comments like the fireman's story. Because the firemen didn't feel that draft of air 500 milliseconds into the collapse did they? Had they they'd be too close to have survived. They felt it as the bulk of the building was coming down on them. Which is a completely different point in time. Totally different conditions. But hey if you want we can also address the squibs, sorry projections seen on the lower floors.

 

[Java Man]

The size of what floor? The outside clear span? Or the core area? Who says an entire acre of floor area needs to be pressurized for your "squibs" to appear?

Well because pressure would increase radially from the core outwards right? It would have to be pretty uniform by the time it reaches the perimeter wall.

 

[A W Smith]

Well because pressure would increase radially from the core outwards right? It would have to be pretty uniform by the time it reaches the perimeter wall.

Now that would depend on the particular floor, what the partition layout would be. Now wouldn't it? How do you suppose HVAC venting from the core to the exterior was accomplished? Or let's say a conference room partition layout? Do you really assume every single floor was clear open office space divided by cubicles. Because that clearly is not the case. It is dependant on tenant outfit requirements. You are trying desperately to treat the towers as one huge hollow cube. Which it wasn't.

Your problem is ignorance. You don't know, and you don't know you don't know.

 

[Java Man]

Now that would depend on the particular floor, what the partition layout would be. Now wouldn't it? How do you suppose HVAC venting from the core to the exterior was accomplished? Or let's say a conference room partition layout? Do you really assume every single floor was clear open office space divided by cubicles. Because that clearly is not the case. It is dependant on tenant outfit requirements. You are trying desperately to treat the towers as one huge hollow cube. Which it wasn't.

Your problem is ignorance. You don't know, and you don't know you don't know.

Now see the problem is actually your lack of burden of proof. Like I've said before your ability to spew out comments without having to support them leads you to make statements like these which further my position rather than yours. You see the more obstacles and irregularities you add between the core and the perimeter wall the harder it is to support your position.

What I'm saying is that a localized collapse ten stories above the impact zone was deliberately initiated destroying floors and pushing smoke out as projections.

What you're defending is that these projections were caused by pressure rising from ten stories below, pushing through the core and now you keep adding more layers of barriers between the core and the projection's exit point. All this just makes it more difficult for the pressure to reach the perimeter.

On top of that we see the projections in the collapse zone to be of the same intensity as those ten stories up. So the pressure on the floor that is collapsing is the same as that across ten stories up (as all the intermediary floors would also have to be pressurized). Even though the interconnecting vents and tubes would have no way to match the flow of an impacted floor. In other words the ability of air to flow outwards from the collapse initiation floor is greater because there is less distance from the pressure buildup point and the perimeter (we're at the same level) and less obstructions (product of the destruction by the aircraft and subsequent burning, not to mention the collapsing walls as the roof collapses).

On top of this it all happens in the first 500 ms and with a huge venting hole on the side of the building.

 

[alienentity]

N

What I'm saying is that a localized collapse ten stories above the impact zone was deliberately initiated destroying floors and pushing smoke out as projections.

You have presented no evidence to support your claim that this was 'deliberate'.

 

[A W Smith]

Now see the problem is actually your lack of burden of proof. Like I've said before your ability to spew out comments without having to support them leads you to make statements like these which further my position rather than yours. You see the more obstacles and irregularities you add between the core and the perimeter wall the harder it is to support your position.

What I'm saying is that a localized collapse ten stories above the impact zone was deliberately initiated destroying floors and pushing smoke out as projections.

What you're defending is that these projections were caused by pressure rising from ten stories below, pushing through the core and now you keep adding more layers of barriers between the core and the projection's exit point. All this just makes it more difficult for the pressure to reach the perimeter.

On top of that we see the projections in the collapse zone to be of the same intensity as those ten stories up. So the pressure on the floor that is collapsing is the same as that across ten stories up (as all the intermediary floors would also have to be pressurized). Even though the interconnecting vents and tubes would have no way to match the flow of an impacted floor. In other words the ability of air to flow outwards from the collapse initiation floor is greater because there is less distance from the pressure buildup point and the perimeter (we're at the same level) and less obstructions (product of the destruction by the aircraft and subsequent burning, not to mention the collapsing walls as the roof collapses).

On top of this it all happens in the first 500 ms and with a huge venting hole on the side of the building.

Ahhh sorry, you have then burden of proof, Not I, Mine is the generally accepted hypothesis.

You dance to and fro, At one point claiming that the open floor area needed to be fully pressurized throughout the tower both up and down from the collapse initiation zone. And when i show you that the shaftways and mechanical raceways can act as a manifold to those squibs, you then change your stance and claim that I am putting obstructions to the flow in place. Did you even watch the video I posted about your "squibs"? Because you never addressed that either.

Im sorry, you will have to do better to support your CD claim,.

 

[jaydeehess]

Well because pressure would increase radially from the core outwards right? It would have to be pretty uniform by the time it reaches the perimeter wall.

Now that would depend on the particular floor, what the partition layout would be. Now wouldn't it? How do you suppose HVAC venting from the core to the exterior was accomplished? Or let's say a conference room partition layout? Do you really assume every single floor was clear open office space divided by cubicles. Because that clearly is not the case. It is dependant on tenant outfit requirements. You are trying desperately to treat the towers as one huge hollow cube. Which it wasn't.

Further to this, and as I pointed out earlier, the collapse initiated as the upper section tilt increased and at collapse, when the upper block fell as a whole that side of the upper block would impact the lower block before the rest of it. this means that the whopping great hole created by the aircraft impact gets closed before the entire floorspace of the upper block has contacted the lower section floor.
Air, dust, smoke, must then move away from the impact side and there are a few other directions for it to go.
To the sides and we do certainly see a huge amount of smoke and debris ejected to the sides.
To the opposite face of the structure. We see this to a lesser extent and not suprisingly since its further away.
Down, through the elevator shafts. We see ejections several floors down ahead of visible collapse zone but none at initial collapse. Probably beacuse of the large amount of windows that had been blown out on fire floors by this time. Allowed most ejections to occur at the fire floors. Ejections after initial collapse take place in a lower structure with almost all intact windows.

So what about the ejections above the initial collapse floors?
As I have said before the lowest floorspace of the upper block contacts the lower block and it forced upwards wrt to its truss seats. The entire upper block is moving downwards including this floor pan but the floor pan , when it impacts the lower floor pan, reduces its downward velocity. It does not move upwards wrt to the earth. It moves upward wrt to the rest of the upper block.
The windows on this floor are mostly intact, air again is squeezed towards the side opposite the impact hole and cannot go down as the elevator shaft leading down is choking off with debris. It can go up though since the elevator shaft leading up is still intact.

Can I prove this?
Nope,,
BUT it is a valid senario and requires no mysterious devices be installed.

Yet another senario though, and as I stated before, would make reference to the fact that the smoke emanating from all office and house fires is simply NOT a continuous and steady flow. Indeed from the time the fires begin in the towers the smoke billows out (that word, 'billows' is pretty descriptive, no?) in far from a steady stream right up to the time of collapse.


Can I prove this?
Nope,,,
BUT, In this senario no air pressurization, or mysterious installed devices are required and the supposed ejections are just normal fire smoke billowing.
,,, AND it is something that is seen on all major fires.

So once again a surreptitious installation of devices may explain a detail of the observed event but there is no evidence that they were in fact there, juxtaposed against more mundane explanations that require nothing more than the fire and the structure itself.

 

[twinstead]

I'm still waiting for Java Man to stop playing God of the Gaps and start actively supporting his position.

 

[jaydeehess]

What I'm saying is that a localized collapse ten stories above the impact zone was deliberately initiated destroying floors and pushing smoke out as projections.

A floor collapse ten storeys above initial collapse zone would not cause collapse initiation at the floors where collapse initiation was observed to occur.

Perhaps collapsing the floor directly above or below the impact/fire zone would destabilize those floors enough to initiate collapse as it would cause some columns to have a greater continuously unbraced length.

So what's the point of collapsing that floor?

 

[jaydeehess]

I'm still waiting for Java Man to stop playing God of the Gaps and start actively supporting his position.

Much of his position is an appeal to ignorance:
Since certain details cannot be proven beyond doubt then all senarios that explain those details are equally valid.

Which would include, though JM is likely to scoff at the inclusion, the contentions of Judy Wood.

 

[twinstead]

Much of his position is an appeal to ignorance:
Since certain details cannot be proven beyond doubt then all senarios that explain those details are equally valid.

Yea, some folks simply do not understand that not all explanations are created equal.

 

[alienentity]

Now see the problem is actually your lack of burden of proof.
On top of this it all happens in the first 500 ms and with a huge venting hole on the side of the building.

This building produces similar 'squibs' even though there are no explosives used in the collapse:
I've created a link to a specific section of the video, but you're welcome to watch the whole 2 part video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzTGMQcXP1Q&t=1m37s

 

[LightningTeg]

This building produces similar 'squibs' even though there are no explosives used in the collapse:
I've created a link to a specific section of the video, but you're welcome to watch the whole 2 part video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzTGMQcXP1Q&t=1m37s

Thats a neat picture at 3:26

 

[aggle-rithm]

The great thing about the JREF forums is that people like Java Man can come in and state their views and actually be taken seriously. They may draw the ire of some people and ridicule of others, but they will not be banned for their views and, most importantly, they will not be ignored.

If Java Man actually went to a venue that really mattered...say, the press, or some engineering governing body...he would be resoundingly ignored. Those people can spot a crackpot a mile away.

So can we, but I suppose we're a lot more patient than they are. Or, perhaps we just get some perverse pleasure out of the whole process.

 

[TruthersLie]

Now see the problem is actually your lack of burden of proof. Like I've said before your ability to spew out comments without having to support them leads you to make statements like these which further my position rather than yours. You see the more obstacles and irregularities you add between the core and the perimeter wall the harder it is to support your position.

What I'm saying is that a localized collapse ten stories above the impact zone was deliberately initiated destroying floors and pushing smoke out as projections.

What you're defending is that these projections were caused by pressure rising from ten stories below, pushing through the core and now you keep adding more layers of barriers between the core and the projection's exit point. All this just makes it more difficult for the pressure to reach the perimeter.

On top of that we see the projections in the collapse zone to be of the same intensity as those ten stories up. So the pressure on the floor that is collapsing is the same as that across ten stories up (as all the intermediary floors would also have to be pressurized). Even though the interconnecting vents and tubes would have no way to match the flow of an impacted floor. In other words the ability of air to flow outwards from the collapse initiation floor is greater because there is less distance from the pressure buildup point and the perimeter (we're at the same level) and less obstructions (product of the destruction by the aircraft and subsequent burning, not to mention the collapsing walls as the roof collapses).

On top of this it all happens in the first 500 ms and with a huge venting hole on the side of the building.

ah...
then I'm sure you can show us the sounds of these explosions ABOVE the imapct zone. The ones you claim.

I mean it isn't like there is audio proof of anyone above the impact zones which refutes your explosives ABOVE the impact zone... oh wait.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/911-phone-calls-from-the-towers/articles/more-about-the-programme

I'm sure in all of the audio from the people trapped above the impact zones you can hear those explosives... you can hear them in this right?


Please tell me where you can hear the explosives in this heart breaking phone call. I'll wait for it.

I'm sure you can hear the explosives in this audio tape...


Please point them out to me.

or please provide any audio evidence. I"m sure that people in the towers MUST have heard any explosives... Please provide some evidence.

 

[twinstead]

Or, perhaps we just get some perverse pleasure out of the whole process.

bingo

 

[aggle-rithm]

ah...
then I'm sure you can show us the sounds of these explosions ABOVE the imapct zone. The ones you claim.

I mean it isn't like there is audio proof of anyone above the impact zones which refutes your explosives ABOVE the impact zone... oh wait.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/911-phone-calls-from-the-towers/articles/more-about-the-programme

I'm sure in all of the audio from the people trapped above the impact zones you can hear those explosives... you can hear them in this right?


Please tell me where you can hear the explosives in this heart breaking phone call. I'll wait for it.

I'm sure you can hear the explosives in this audio tape...


Please point them out to me.

or please provide any audio evidence. I"m sure that people in the towers MUST have heard any explosives... Please provide some evidence.

He is either going to say that the explosives were tiny (after all, each floor was only held up by two or three itty bitty bolts) and were thus unnoticed, or that there was some other mechanism other than explosives that were used.

The only problem with this alternate mechanism is that you have to find a way to make them disappear after they are triggered. Otherwise, since there would have to be at least one such mechanism for each bolt you wanted to cut, the investigators looking through the rubble would have found THOUSANDS of them. One or two they might overlook, but at some point, someone is going to say, "What the hell are THESE things?"

ETA: Oh, let us not forget that the connections between the floors and perimeter columns were strong enough to bow the columns inward when the floors began to sag...it would take quite a bit of energy to sever them all in one fell swoop. Where did this energy come from?

 

[Java Man]

And when i show you that the shaftways and mechanical raceways can act as a manifold to those squibs, you then change your stance and claim that I am putting obstructions to the flow in place. Did you even watch the video I posted about your "squibs"? Because you never addressed that either.

But they are! Any wall, door or object or considerable size in the path of the out flowing air IS an obstruction. You can't deny that. Although you may claim I disregarded them in by simply stating that I require "open floor area needed to be fully pressurized". You can't deny that they are still obstructions.

Now I understand where you're coming from. The passages reduce the amount of air you'd need to fully pressurize a floor. But passages are in all the floors. So even if only 1/10 th of the floor needed to be pressurized to produce the projection (hard to believe as AC vents interconnect areas even when doors do not). You'd still have to account for the passages of all the stories in between going up ten floors and down ten floors. It quickly adds up to more than one floor and I'm not even counting the interconnecting shaftways and raceway which also require air to pressurize. And on top of that you have the huge hole on the perimeter leaking everything out into the open.

 

[Java Man]

A floor collapse ten storeys above initial collapse zone would not cause collapse initiation at the floors where collapse initiation was observed to occur.

Perhaps collapsing the floor directly above or below the impact/fire zone would destabilize those floors enough to initiate collapse as it would cause some columns to have a greater continuously unbraced length.

So what's the point of collapsing that floor?

Maybe it would maybe it wouldn't, but we have ten stories in between to find another floor to release. A floor 11 stories up is released and one 6 stories up and that builds up to initiate the collapse. And yes releasing upper floors would increase bowing as there would be less floors holding the perimeter wall in. So crash floors are sagging pulling the walls in, upper floors are released and in between floors act as a pivot point forcing even more bowing. If you also release floors below the impact zone this effect is increased even further.

A good point to collapse those floors is lowering the center of gravity of th whole structure as collapse initiates.

 

[Java Man]

This building produces similar 'squibs' even though there are no explosives used in the collapse:

I never said the projections were produced by explosives. I stated that the projections were product of overpressure from falling floors. The misuse of the term squib has already been addressed by another member and I've refrained from using it instead of the correct term "projections".