Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Katody Matrass]

Vinci's 215mm is nuts,

No, it's just honest. Do you expect a dynamically created foot track to be always as long as a reference print of a relaxed foot? It's enough to slightly curl one's toes to get a print a centimeter or 2 shorter. It's enough to take the camera shake and long exposure smear, which was huge in that particular photo, to make that print a centimeter or 2 longer. Rinaldi did it and got a 227 mm. What he did to make it into 244 mm (exact Raffaele's size) on his second attempt is a mistery.

go measure it.

I did and I agree with Vinci. In the available online photos of the luminol track you can discern the floor tile outline, dimensions of which are quite precisely known. It can be used as a reference to measure the length of the track. I'd say Rinaldi's result of 244 mm is laughable.

I wear female 6.5 American size, a smallish size, which is 37 european size and my foot measures almost 230mm. 215mm would equate to a child's foot.

37? I guess it depends on how you measure it, Raffaele's reference print was 245 mm according to Massei and he wears size 9 (42). Interestingly here's how Massei summarizes Vinci's findings:

This led the technical consultant to consider the print only 215mm long (which it is not), and consequently to judge that it came from a foot of that length, a good 3cm less than the foot of the accused, with a shoe size between 36 and 37.

But setting aside those musings, let's assume that single outstanding luminol print was Raffaele's and is made in victim's blood. Why is it the only one? what happened to the rest of them? Why is it placed so far from the murder room?
Do you believe that the two cleaned every other invisible print of Raffaele, carefully avoiding any disturbance to the multiple faint Rudy's shoeprints in between? What was the purpose of leaving Rudy's shoeprints intact?
They cleaned so well that they left no trace of that cleanup and didn't disturb Guede's traces, yet they failed so badly and left clear prints in the middle of Amanda's room and in the corridor?

 

[Alt+F4]

There is more evidence of Amanda and Meredith's friendship than anything remotely suggesting the reverse.

Then just show it or link to it.

The core "evidence" of murder (the disputed DNA readings on the knife and bra clasp) has been pretty comprehensively dismantled in this forum...

No, it hasn't.

 

[Alt+F4]

Police brutality includes framing a person, don't you think?

I think if the police frame someone it's police misconduct, not police brutality. In every case of the police framing someone the police (either collectively or as individuals) do it because those officer(s) have something to gain by the framing.

What was there to gain by framing AK and RS? This wasn't an unsolved murder, there was no money or drugs to squeeze from them. Why turn a relatively small mistake into something that might cost them their careers and possibly lead to criminal corruption charges?

Next you have to explain why folks outside the initial arrests would go along with this framing when they were in different agencies.

Interesting answer to the question: "I'm just wondering if you have any references that aren't written by government. "

I work for the local government and I'd never take the fall for someone else's mistake, no one I know would. I doubt the Italians are any different. Why do you think otherwise? Please don't say because of fear of the Stalin-like prosecutor. If that were the case he wouldn't have been convicted himself in a separate case and the lovebirds wouldn't have been able to retain Italian lawyers and Italian expert witnesses.

 

[jj]

I don't think I've pointed this out, so forgive me if I'm repeating myself, but outside of the big cities, Americans aren't real popular in Italy, and there is a lot of "interesting" sentiment from the local police. She was held without being able to contact embassy, etc, for quite a while, by the way, or so I'm told, in abrogation of the treaty-established diplomatic practice.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0808-04.htm

Yeah, it's a somewhat biased source, but as it happens, I know this young lady, who is a devout Quaker and a "lie down and die instead of fight" pacifist (or at least used to be that). Her "crime" was that she owned a black bra, and so the police assert that means she's part of some kind of "black somethingorother" terrorist group.

Take it how thou wilt, and I know zero about the Amanda Knox affair, but I have no reason to trust local officials based on what I do know.

 

[RoseMontague]

I don't think I've pointed this out, so forgive me if I'm repeating myself, but outside of the big cities, Americans aren't real popular in Italy, and there is a lot of "interesting" sentiment from the local police. She was held without being able to contact embassy, etc, for quite a while, by the way, or so I'm told, in abrogation of the treaty-established diplomatic practice.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0808-04.htm

Yeah, it's a somewhat biased source, but as it happens, I know this young lady, who is a devout Quaker and a "lie down and die instead of fight" pacifist (or at least used to be that). Her "crime" was that she owned a black bra, and so the police assert that means she's part of some kind of "black somethingorother" terrorist group.

As to the Italian prosecutor, the fact that now the parents are being accused of criminal acts for defending their daughter would seem a clear statement to me. Take it how thou wilt, and I know zero about the Amanda Knox affair, but I have no reason to trust local officials based on what I do know.

Thanks for your input. You are welcome to stick around.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

How can a discussion about Amanda's parents discussing the charges against Amanda derail a thread dedicated to Amanda's case? To me, this logic lacks all common sense.

You are free to discuss the ridiculous charges leveled against Amanda's parents here:

http://www.injusticeinperugiaforum.org/amanda-knox-case-public-discussion-thread-2-8-2011-t747-100.html

 

[Alt+F4]

How can a discussion about Amanda's parents discussing the charges against Amanda derail a thread dedicated to Amanda's case? To me, this logic lacks all common sense.

Amanda's case is separate from the case against her parents. Two separate cases. Murder in the former, libel in the latter.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Amanda's case is separate from the case against her parents. Two separate cases. Murder in the former, libel in the latter.

This doesn't answer the question. How could the additional discussion derail the thread? The discussion is based on the Amanda Knox case.

Do you feel the charges were necessary?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Besides, shouldn't we wait until the trial is over, before we start proclaiming the injustice of it all ?

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Besides, shouldn't we wait until the trial is over, before we start proclaiming the injustice of it all ?

Would you feel the same if your son or daughter spent 3 to 5 years of their life in a prison as the mess was sorted out?

It would be nice if some would incorporate your logic. It would eliminate an awful lot of hate being spewed at Amanda and Raffaele. Imagine if everyone waited it out before passing judgment.

 

[RoseMontague]

Besides, shouldn't we wait until the trial is over, before we start proclaiming the injustice of it all ?

This one will probably go to the ECHR if it gets that far. Someone suggested that they had a 46 year backlog so I suggest we set a pop up reminder to discuss it at that time.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Would you feel the same if your son or daughter spent 3 to 5 years of their life in a prison as the mess was sorted out?

It would be nice if some would incorporate your logic. It would eliminate an awful lot of hate being spewed at Amanda and Raffaele. Imagine if everyone waited it out before passing judgment.

Actually, I was referring to the new libel charges, but it seems this is not the proper place to discuss..

 

[RoseMontague]

Actually, I was referring to the new libel charges, but it seems this is not the proper place to discuss..

This is a complicated case with many issues and subjects. As far as other cases we have Rudy's and Mignini's as well as the eight nine people he has filed charges or threatened to file charges against. I believe Meredith's parents are suing Raffaele's parents as well as incorporating their civil suit against Amanda, Rudy, and Raffaele in the murder trial. And Patrick is suing the cops for 5 million and Amanda has sued a paper over the release of her diary. I am probably forgetting a few. This thread could easily be split 15 times just based on that one criteria.

 

[babycondor]

This one will probably go to the ECHR if it gets that far. Someone suggested that they had a 46 year backlog so I suggest we set a pop up reminder to discuss it at that time.

Excellent suggestion.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

That's a very interesting article, I found this paragraph ought to apply as well:

"Luminol, 3-aminophthalhydrazide, has become a popular presumptive
test for blood (1–3), especially in crime scene investigation.
In previous research it has been shown that the treatment of
bloodstains with luminol can have an effect on the typing of bloodstains
using conventional serological typing (4–6), however it does not have an adverse effect on the subsequent analysis of these bloodstains using DNA analysis."

Table 1 listed no combination without a clean-up would turn a luminol detection into a false negative. Yet there was no evidence of a clean-up and one with bleach would have wiped out or smeared horribly the invisible footprints themselves, n'est pas?

What makes you think these spots on the floor ever had anything to do with the murder anyway? Just because they're there? Are all the spots on your carpet evidence you murdered someone?

Relevant scientific papers were cited much earlier, in the previous thread or the one before, and it is indeed quite possible to get false negatives on tests for blood after luminol is used in some cases.

In Bayesian terms if the test for blood comes back negative we should reduce the likelihood that the stain was made in blood, but we should not eliminate it entirely.

However when you also take into account the fact that the footsteps don't lead to or from the bedroom, that bloody footprints left by Guede do lead from the bedroom and that there is absolutely no positive evidence of any kind of clean-up of the floor outside the bedroom then the totality of evidence gives very little support to the "Amanda and Raffaele made the footprints in blood" hypothesis and strong support to the "it was something else, nobody can now know exactly what" hypothesis.

 

[Justinian2]

I think if the police frame someone it's police misconduct, not police brutality. In every case of the police framing someone the police (either collectively or as individuals) do it because those officer(s) have something to gain by the framing.

Police misconduct is perhaps a more approprtiate name. It could have also been police incompetence. As for the motives, a lot of studies and a lot of well known incidents prove that the police don't need an obvious motive. The police are very motivated to please their bosses and fraternal brothers. Protecting the reputation of themselves and their unit is part of their motive to please their unit. You and I wouldn't understand this if we haven't been a part of a close knit group.

I work for the local government and I'd never take the fall for someone else's mistake, no one I know would. I doubt the Italians are any different. Why do you think otherwise? Please don't say because of fear of the Stalin-like prosecutor. If that were the case he wouldn't have been convicted himself in a separate case and the lovebirds wouldn't have been able to retain Italian lawyers and Italian expert witnesses.

I've noticed that people that work for government are very protective of government (and their 'fraternal government workers'). You fell into a profile.

 

[Fine]

This is a complicated case with many issues and subjects. As far as other cases we have Rudy's and Mignini's as well as the eight nine people he has filed charges or threatened to file charges against. I believe Meredith's parents are suing Raffaele's parents as well as incorporating their civil suit against Amanda, Rudy, and Raffaele in the murder trial. And Patrick is suing the cops for 5 million and Amanda has sued a paper over the release of her diary. I am probably forgetting a few. This thread could easily be split 15 times just based on that one criteria.

_________________________

Rose,

I believe that there are still pending criminal charges against Doctor Sollecito (and, perhaps, also his daughter, Vanessa) for obstruction of justice. There was mention of the family's obstructive activities in the trial of Amanda and Raffaele. See La Repubblica/March 13, 2009/ Translated

///

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi all,
Have a look at this:

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2011/02/trial-for-amanda-knoxs-parents.html

Frank Sfarzo is connecting the dots...

I wonder if we will someday hear any audio recording from the reporter who interviewed Patrick Lumumba about his visit to the Questura?

Surely Antonia Hoyle of the Mail Online must have recorded the conversation that occurred as Mr. Lumumba sat with his pretty girlfriend and his son.

"Meredith was a natural charmer, a beautiful girl who made friends easily, and effortlessly received attention wherever she went," Patrick explains, sitting beside his pretty Polish-born girlfriend of six years Aleksandra Kania, 28, and their 19-month-old son, Davide.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ls-framed-Merediths-murder.html#ixzz1E62FIcTV

 

[Mary_H]

So as to not derail this thread, the discussion about any intimidation, libel or other misdeeds concerning Amanda's parents or their interaction with the Italian authorities has been moved here

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis

We've been talking about these circumstances since the first thread. Better get busy searching if you want to find them all.

 

[LondonJohn]

Nadeau has a new review of the Lifetime TV movie on The Daily Beast:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-02-15/review-of-lifetimes-amanda-knox-movie/

FWIW, her review concludes that

Lifetime lands squarely on the side of reasonable doubt when it comes to Knox's conviction, but the network also does a fair job showing just why the jury in Perugia found her guilty.

Also interestingly, she notes that

Lifetime was also careful not to offend the main characters of the real story, showing respect to prosecutor Mignini and his sidekick policewomen, who are portrayed as smart, capable investigators caught up in a terribly complicated crime. There is nothing more than a subtle hint of shoddy police work, no portrayal of Mignini as the crazy lunatic the Knox supporters contend he is.

I wonder why the film goes so easy on accusations against Mignini.....?


Incidentally, I have wondered awhile on the mass expressions of outrage about this film - not the outrage expressed because this is a "live" ongoing case (which I think is rational and justified), but the outrage expressed at the "insult" and grief which the film might being to Meredith's family and friends. I happened to see a documentary about the Hillside Stranglers in LA on TV the other day, which included actual film footage of some of the naked victims lying on hillsides or scrunched into the boots (trunks) of cars. I imagine that many of the most vocal people shouting "moral outrage!" at the Kercher film have also seen these sorts of documentaries, so I feel certain that they will have been equally vocal in their condemnation of these other films and documentaries. Oh, what's that you say? No, they haven't been? It's purely selective outrage? Oh, right.