Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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There is no "hate-campaign" against Amanda Knox. Many people I'm sure dislike her because they believe she is a murderer. Do you have any evidence that this anonymous quote has influenced a great number of people's opinions regarding this case?

Want a reason to dislike Amanda Knox, just read her "first things first" alibi email back home. Most dead dogs gets more respect than what Meredith did in that self-serving dose of narcissism.

How sure are you that this is not just confirmation bias colouring what you read?

The pro-guilt community seems to have a large number of members who read that email under the assumptions that (1) everything in the email is Amanda's spontaneous narrative of events completely unbiased by police questioning, and that (2) she is a murderer trying to establish a cover story. They see evidence of her evil, evil nature practically dripping off the page.

Whereas if you read it under the assumption that her focus on mops, bathmats, Meredith's possible adventures in non-standard sex and so on is to some extent the result of police harping on about those issues, and with an open mind as to her guilt, it just reads like an email.
 
No. I'm referring to this bit:



Was Amanda's priority reaching out to Meredith's family? No. Was Amanda's priority helping the police with the investigation? No. Was Amanda's priority being fearful that there was a sex-crazy murderer running loose in the city? No.

Amanda priority...her first priority in her own words....was getting her important documents out of the house.

Again, most dead dogs would have been given more consideration.


1) The expression "first things first" does not indicate any prioritisation in terms of relative importance. Unless you are pre-disposed to making that link, of course....

2) It seems to be Knox's housemates (Filomena and Laura) who were the prime movers in taking the steps to getting these "important documents" released. Not Knox. Any criticism of them, by any chance?


Also, as a small aside, I wonder if your view of Knox is in any way influenced by the allegations of anti-semitic behaviour that were revisited in a few posts this evening? Do you believe Knox was anti-semitic? And, if so, would you say that it's coloured your view of her? Or is it just that she's a "monster" that's the problem?
 
Again, most dead dogs would have been given more consideration.

Do people refer to dead dogs in this way?

The last time i saw meredith, 22, english, beautiful, funny, was when i came home from spending the night at a friends house

Interesting that in order to make your point you just skip to the end of the letter and cherry-pick something that doesn't mention Meredith.
 
1) The expression "first things first" does not indicate any prioritisation in terms of relative importance.

Now that's a Stundie! Learn something about how Americans speak.

2) It seems to be Knox's housemates (Filomena and Laura) who were the prime movers in taking the steps to getting these "important documents" released. Not Knox. Any criticism of them, by any chance?

Read what Amanda wrote, not what you want to believe about her. She doesn't say it was either Filomena or Laura's idea.

Also, as a small aside, I wonder if your view of Knox is in any way influenced by the allegations of anti-semitic behaviour that were revisited in a few posts this evening? Do you believe Knox was anti-semitic? And, if so, would you say that it's coloured your view of her? Or is it just that she's a "monster" that's the problem?

Read up, I already addressed the allegations of anti-semetism.
 
If such emails existed Rose I'm sure Amanda's supporters would have made them public long ago. Same goes with photos of these two supposed "friends". Why nothing on Facebook or MySpace by either woman?

I have not seen all of her FaceBook or MySpace comments just selected portions and I doubt I have seen all her pictures either. They did exchange some friendly text messages and did attend a chocolate festival together shortly before the murder. I would be very surprised if there were not some pictures taken. Perhaps they were on Amanda's computer.

I have seen comments from those on the side of guilt saying so what if there were, it proves nothing. Yet, they still bring this lack of documented friendship evidence up. Meredith's camera was taken by the Perugian police as evidence. I have not seen any of those pictures, have you?
 
I agree with Alt-F4, if these emails existed we surely would have known about them by now. They would have been released to dispel the notion Amanda had no feelings about Meredith, of that I am 100% sure. There are no such emails.

As for the luminol footprints attributed to Amanda and Raffaele, can anyone explain what they might have been made in in order to only have footprints compatible to these two and none to any of the other roommates or friends who frequented the cottage? What did these two, and only these two, step in? If it was rusty water from the pipes, then we should have a story of the two of them showering together but we don't. If it was fruit juice, floor cleaner, or any of the other offered suggestions from the rather bizarre list of what glows under luminol then we should have prints from many others, the roommates and perhaps friends who were around in good weather when they likely took off sandles and walked around without socks but we don't. What caused these footprints attributed to Amanda and Raffaele to glow? I'm curious.
 
How sure are you that this is not just confirmation bias colouring what you read?

The pro-guilt community seems to have a large number of members who read that email under the assumptions that (1) everything in the email is Amanda's spontaneous narrative of events completely unbiased by police questioning, and that (2) she is a murderer trying to establish a cover story. They see evidence of her evil, evil nature practically dripping off the page.

Whereas if you read it under the assumption that her focus on mops, bathmats, Meredith's possible adventures in non-standard sex and so on is to some extent the result of police harping on about those issues, and with an open mind as to her guilt, it just reads like an email.

I was referring to the email only....gosh why so much talk about her sex life? I've repeatedly said that who she was doing and how she was doing it wouldn't change my opinion about the FACTS in this case.

As for police questioning, was it the police who told her it sucked that she had to pay the next month's rent?
 
importance

Now that's a Stundie! Learn something about how Americans speak.

Alt+F4,

Importance is not the same thing as urgency.

Amanda had told Raffaele that if she had been at the girls' flat, she would be dead also. She was fearful about going out at night, so I think she was indeed concerned that a murderer was on the loose. As for helping the police, I cannot imagine anything she could have done differently.
 
I agree with Alt-F4, if these emails existed we surely would have known about them by now. They would have been released to dispel the notion Amanda had no feelings about Meredith, of that I am 100% sure. There are no such emails.

As for the luminol footprints attributed to Amanda and Raffaele, can anyone explain what they might have been made in in order to only have footprints compatible to these two and none to any of the other roommates or friends who frequented the cottage? What did these two, and only these two, step in? If it was rusty water from the pipes, then we should have a story of the two of them showering together but we don't. If it was fruit juice, floor cleaner, or any of the other offered suggestions from the rather bizarre list of what glows under luminol then we should have prints from many others, the roommates and perhaps friends who were around in good weather when they likely took off sandles and walked around without socks but we don't. What caused these footprints attributed to Amanda and Raffaele to glow? I'm curious.

They had footprint samples from Amanda, Rudy and Raffaele, and not from Laura and Filomena, or the young men downstairs. We do know it was not blood because every TMB test was negative and the supposed blood did not contain Meredith's DNA. Strange that if it was her blood that none of her DNA showed up. These prints could have been compatible with a lot of footprints including Filomena's and Laura's if they were compared to theirs, which they were not.
 
I agree with Alt-F4, if these emails existed we surely would have known about them by now. They would have been released to dispel the notion Amanda had no feelings about Meredith, of that I am 100% sure. There are no such emails.

As for the luminol footprints attributed to Amanda and Raffaele, can anyone explain what they might have been made in in order to only have footprints compatible to these two and none to any of the other roommates or friends who frequented the cottage? What did these two, and only these two, step in? If it was rusty water from the pipes, then we should have a story of the two of them showering together but we don't. If it was fruit juice, floor cleaner, or any of the other offered suggestions from the rather bizarre list of what glows under luminol then we should have prints from many others, the roommates and perhaps friends who were around in good weather when they likely took off sandles and walked around without socks but we don't. What caused these footprints attributed to Amanda and Raffaele to glow? I'm curious.

Given that ILE wrongly attributed Raf's shoeprints to Guede's and the bathmat print that looks nothing like his distinctive big toe, I don't have that much confidence that the Luminol prints can only be attributed to AK and RS. How were they excluded as being any of the other flatmates or visitors to the cottage, seeing as how they were mostly shapeless blobs?
 
I had an interesting (and not at all pleasant) bout of gastroenteritis over yesterday and today - I spent a fun day in hospital today on a drip :)

And it illustrated something that was of relevance to the ToD argument. I had dinner on Saturday night, but felt awful when I woke up on Sunday, however I had some breakfast on Sunday morning nonetheless. After that, I had nothing further to eat at all on Sunday. I vomited at around 7pm on Sunday night, and the contents contained identifiable elements of my breakfast from around 10 hours previous, but no identifiable elements from my Saturday dinner (which passed out in the other direction!). So my Sunday breakfast had sat in my stomach for around 10 hours, before I brought it back up.

From this, it's clear that normal gastric function can be significantly affected by gastro-intestinal illness or infection. And this is entirely supported by medical literature. Now, some people choose to lean on this as a de facto rebuttal of any ToD arguments based on stomach/intestinal contents (along the lines of: "See! in certain circumstances, food can stay in the stomach for well over 8 hours! So there's no way you can use stomach contents as a ToD indicator! Nurrr!"

But........ the whole point is that normal stomach/intestinal function IS definable and measurable on a bell-curve of statistical probability. And it shows quite clearly that in an otherwise healthy adult, the stomach contents always (in over 99.995% of instances) start to empty into the duodenum within 4 hours of eating. The only thing which can upset these statistics is either extreme general illness, extreme terror, or specific gastro-intestinal illness.

Had Meredith been suffering from an intense general illness, or any significant form of GI illness, I can virtually guarantee that she would have been in no state to electively visit her friends' house and hang out for 5-6 hours. All she would have wanted to do would have been to lie in bed. So I think we can safely conclude that she wasn't acutely ill on the afternoon/evening of the 1st November. Of course, the evidence suggestes that she had been extremely drunk the night before (although we're not supposed to talk about that now, are we...?), but that would not have affected her GI function over 12 hours later.

One last point on this: some people seem to believe that another "gotcha" in this area is that some of Meredith's friends testified that the meal ended at around 7.45pm - and they then add 3-4 hours to this time in order to reach a ToD of 10-45-11.45pm. But these people seemingly do not understand that the important time is the start of the meal, not the end. The clock starts as soon as the first mouthful is taken, and we have pretty ample evidence that this was at around 6.30pm. Remember that there were identifiable elements of the pizza meal found in Meredith's stomach, and that it's abundantly clear that not only had no food had passed from the stomach to the duodenum, but also that there was no food matter in any of the small intestine except for a small amout at the very end.

And this all points to one inescapable conclusion: Meredith ate her final meal between around 6.30pm and 7.45-8.00pm. And that the state of her stomach/intestine contents at autopsy, when set against all the medical evidence, strongly suggests that Meredith almost certainly died before 10pm - and most likely by 9.30pm.
 
did the prosecution explain them

I agree with Alt-F4, if these emails existed we surely would have known about them by now. They would have been released to dispel the notion Amanda had no feelings about Meredith, of that I am 100% sure. There are no such emails.

As for the luminol footprints attributed to Amanda and Raffaele, can anyone explain what they might have been made in in order to only have footprints compatible to these two and none to any of the other roommates or friends who frequented the cottage? What did these two, and only these two, step in? If it was rusty water from the pipes, then we should have a story of the two of them showering together but we don't. If it was fruit juice, floor cleaner, or any of the other offered suggestions from the rather bizarre list of what glows under luminol then we should have prints from many others, the roommates and perhaps friends who were around in good weather when they likely took off sandles and walked around without socks but we don't. What caused these footprints attributed to Amanda and Raffaele to glow? I'm curious.

Danceme,

Why do you believe that the footprints are only compatible to Raffaele and to Amanda? I believe that Colonel Garofano noted the absence of reference footprints in Darkness Descending. He also implied that the luminol was overapplied. Why don't you try to explain their existence (when and how they were made; why no others were made at the same time; why the TMB test was negative; why the lack of Meredith's DNA in at least some of them) assuming that they are blood?

I am not sure why you think that the list is bizarre. Hemoglobin is mimicking fruit juice in this experiment, not the other way around.
 
I have not seen all of her FaceBook or MySpace comments just selected portions and I doubt I have seen all her pictures either.

Again, if the photos existed, we would have seen them already.

They did exchange some friendly text messages...

I know Amanda texted Meredith on Halloween about hanging out later. Did she respond? What we do know is that they didn't hang out together that night.

...and did attend a chocolate festival together shortly before the murder.

Hearsay, only coming from a Knox family member.

I would be very surprised if there were not some pictures taken. Perhaps they were on Amanda's computer.

Yet not one online photo or email about this.

Yet, they still bring this lack of documented friendship evidence up. Meredith's camera was taken by the Perugian police as evidence. I have not seen any of those pictures, have you?

Nope.

I'm not saying that Amanda and Meredith hated each other, what I'm saying is that there has been zero evidence presented for them being close friends. These women didn't decide to live together because they were best buds, it was a business relationship.
 
Read what Amanda wrote, not what you want to believe about her. She doesn't say it was either Filomena or Laura's idea.

Here was the quote you posted:

First things first though, my roommates both work for lawyers, and they are going to try to send a request through on monday to retrieve important documents of ours that are still in the house. Secondly, we are going to talk to the agency that we used to find our house and obviously request to move out. It kind of sucks that we have to pay the next months rent, but the owner has protection within the contract.

Here is a transcript of an intercepted call between Amanda and Filomena on this issue:

FR: Then let's -- [at this point she switches to English. Cute accent -- but
her English isn't really any better than Amanda's Italian! Literal
transcription.] We can do in this way, if you want. After that I get
in the agency office to talk about what we have to do...

AK: Yes?

FR: ...after I have to go to office to talk with my lawyer...

[A voice intervenes, perhaps the interpreter? LG stops the audio] Afterwards
she had to go to her office to see her lawyer. [Background murmuring.
Audio rewinds a bit and starts again, this time translated orally bit by
bit by the interpreter]

FR: ...about the problem of the home because he says that we have a problem.

AK: Yes?

FR: And if...if the agency says there are some problems with the rest of the...
rest of the...in legal ways [I think this is what she just tried to say but
it's hard to understand. The interpreter simply says "One can't understand
Romanelli's English very well" (!) At this point Filomena switches back to
Italian.] We're okay because it's all in our favor.

This is very clear that it is a joint concern shared by all of them. I think you are applying a different standard to Amanda than that of Laura and Filomena on this one.
 
Now that's a Stundie! Learn something about how Americans speak.

Hmmm, I'm debating whether this constitutes a personal insult or not. I'm leaning towards thinking that it does. In any case, maybe you could educate me as to the "American" meaning of this phrase.


Read what Amanda wrote, not what you want to believe about her. She doesn't say it was either Filomena or Laura's idea.

Ummm.....point me to where I claimed it was their idea. I claimed that they were the prime movers in getting it done. Here's the quote from Knox's email, to refresh your memory:

First things first though, my roommates both work for lawyers, and they are going to try to send a request through on monday to retrieve important documents of ours that are still in the house.
 
Halloween

I know Amanda texted Meredith on Halloween about hanging out later. Did she respond? What we do know is that they didn't hang out together that night.

Alt+F4,

We have been through this before. Meredith demurred, and she signed off with an "x."
 
Here was the quote you posted:



Here is a transcript of an intercepted call between Amanda and Filomena on this issue:



This is very clear that it is a joint concern shared by all of them. I think you are applying a different standard to Amanda than that of Laura and Filomena on this one.


Confirmation bias is a curious phenomenon, especially when it's coupled with its nasty little cousin: irrational hatred....
 
Had Meredith been suffering from an intense general illness, or any significant form of GI illness, I can virtually guarantee that she would have been in no state to electively visit her friends' house and hang out for 5-6 hours. All she would have wanted to do would have been to lie in bed. So I think we can safely conclude that she wasn't acutely ill on the afternoon/evening of the 1st November. Of course, the evidence suggestes that she had been extremely drunk the night before (although we're not supposed to talk about that now, are we...?), but that would not have affected her GI function over 12 hours later.

Why not? Meredith was of age and was out having fun on Halloween.

And this all points to one inescapable conclusion: Meredith ate her final meal between around 6.30pm and 7.45-8.00pm. And that the state of her stomach/intestine contents at autopsy, when set against all the medical evidence, strongly suggests that Meredith almost certainly died before 10pm - and most likely by 9.30pm.

Do you have any information on what effect the trauma of such a violent attack and slow death would have on digestion?
 
Confirmation bias is a curious phenomenon, especially when it's coupled with its nasty little cousin: irrational hatred....

If you're referring to me John, I don't hate anyone. I just see the evidence differently than you do.
 
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