Building demolished from the top down.

Not necessarily survive the impact. Just not detonate prematurely upon impact would be a simpler requirement. Something easily achievable by requiring a mixture prior to detonation. Unmixed base elements would just burn up harmlessly.

amazing that.

YOUR own "truther" expert says that detonators would fail at about 300C.

Any explosive necessary to initiate the collapse would HAVE to survive the impact of the jets.

Nice handwave noted.

so now we have explosives that require "mixing." How does this type of device
a. survive the impact
and more importantly
b. get installed at the correct floor UNNOTICED

followed by
c. how do the jets manage to perfectly strike the correct floors.
 
Then the collapse would not have iniatiated at the impact points, it would have started above.

Problem.

Why would that be a problem?

What "main" trusses? ALL of the floors were on trusses. They attached to the exterior columns and the core columns. What are the "main" trusses?

Got the name convention from here.

wtc_floor_truss_system1.jpg
 
So what? He's still responsible for the original lease if he wants to rebuild.

Yes, but he still has around 90 years to pay that. How much money does 1B cash make in the hands of folks like Silverstein. Answer: more than enough to pay that debt many times over.
 
Any explosive necessary to initiate the collapse would HAVE to survive the impact of the jets.

They don't have to survive the impact of the jets. They can be safely in other floors away from high temperatures and ready to initiate the collapse from those floors.
 
Yes, but he still has around 90 years to pay that. How much money does 1B cash make in the hands of folks like Silverstein. Answer: more than enough to pay that debt many times over.
How much would he have made if the whole (9/11) thing didn't happen? (to date)
 
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Java Man:

You're not against Silverstein trying to make a return on his investment despite the event of 9/11 are you?

Anyway you add it up he would have been better off it the whole day didn't happen. Agree?
 
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Let me get this straight: even if Silverstein has made less than if 9-11 would have never happened, the fact he made anything post 9-11 is suspicious?
 
They don't have to survive the impact of the jets. They can be safely in other floors away from high temperatures and ready to initiate the collapse from those floors.

The speculation of possibilities is endless, proof or reasonable cause to suggest they were there, is zero
 
Let me get this straight: even if Silverstein has made less than if 9-11 would have never happened, the fact he made anything post 9-11 is suspicious?

It's like inside trading. It's not wrong to make a profit from selling stock. It is wrong to do so having prior knowledge.
 
Simple adding? Well it was simple, but in arithmetic terms and not as you're trying to use the term "simple". But is sure is more numbers and references than you've brought. Face it all you talk about is load distributions and this and that, but you really don't bring any numbers on the table.

In fact I have referred you to NISTNCSTAR1-6 a couple of times. Forgive me if I do not copy and paste entire NIST reports.
NIST did the work you complain I did not show you and you are fully aware of that fact.
I have no significant disagreement with NIST. You OTOH apparently do, to the point of managing to ignore most of the NIST reports, and only referring to those bits and pieces you choose to.
You now say that all one need do to initiate collapse is to have floor-column connections severed and indeed while that may be true this is an attempt to minimize the observations of the actual response of the buildings to the impact and fires. For instance, inward pulling of the trusses on the perimeter columns in both WTC 1 & 2. This inward pulling IS a known fact and demostrates that the interior of the structure was a a very elevated temperature thus bolstering the idea that the core columns were in fact hot and weakened.

Instead you choose to opine, without any evidence whatsoever, that there 'coulda bin' small explosives or other devices, attached to truss seats, or it seems, the trusses themselves.

If only one column had failed there would have been load distributions, but hardly a high risk of collapse (think Cessna impact).

Whhaaaa?? Yes, and more damage=more redistribution, and continuing damage=more redistribution, and even you must realize that at some point total failure ensues.

All this hand waving is a futile attempt at spinning something to convince us of something for which you don't even have the numbers to back you up.

You have absolutly nothing whatsoever, other than handwaving, to consider the use of any explosives or other devices and you accuse me and other debunkers of mere handwaving!


More so I'd add you're clearly wrong in what my attempt is. I'm not claiming that it should have fallen after the first tower because it was hit afterwards. I'm countering the claim by another member here who says that it feel sooner because it had twice as many stories on top of it.

, and I asked you several pages back, to tell us at what floors the columns changed size.
, and IIRC it has been pointed out to you that core column failure was not the initiating factor in collapse, it was exterior column failures that progressed around the structure, that initiated collapse. So increased core columns sizes are barely even part of the equation in collapse initiation.


A typical debunker closing line to try to throw something, anything, at my arguments in a futile attempt to discredit it with nothing more than empty words.

Fact is that although you have been a little more detailed than so many other conspiracists you still are adhereing to a simplistic view of the collapses.

As I pointed out before though, your move towards saying that only a small amount and number of explosive, or other devices, would be needed is a move towards no requirement for such things at all. It is that very fact which keeps you in the minority among the 9/11 conspiracy adherents.
 
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It's like inside trading. It's not wrong to make a profit from selling stock. It is wrong to do so having prior knowledge.
The problem is you have not shown he made more money then if the event did not happen. Does it make sense to take all the risk (If your allegations into his involvement) just to break even.

:confused:
 
True and that could be their greatest mistake. Usually the simplest solution is the best solution.

The least complicated expalnation, given these conditions, is a team of ninja elves with unobtainium swords.

Indeed Java Man may in fact be contending a 'simpler' senario than many (most?) other 9/11 conspiracists but does so by ignoring the actual least complicated senario of them all, and the only one with any evidence of having been in effect, that aircraft damage and subsequent fire damage caused the structures to collapse.
 
I never compared the heat conductivity of "a COPPER heat sink in a PC to a STEEL box". I brought the images up to show how a narrow piece of metal can be used to carry heat away effectively, thus showing that the support connectors would transfer heat from the floor to the columns. Surely not as good as copper, but not as bad as wood either. So the point of heat transfer should be at least considered. Not brushed away in a typical debunker hand wave.

One of those statements is not like the other.
 
Yes, but he still has around 90 years to pay that. How much money does 1B cash make in the hands of folks like Silverstein. Answer: more than enough to pay that debt many times over.
Do you actually think he financed that amount over the entire length of the lease?

:eek:
 
This inward pulling IS a known fact and demostrates that the interior of the structure was a a very elevated temperature thus bolstering the idea that the core columns were in fact hot and weakened.

I though it was the other way around. That the inward pulling was deducted from the models that showed the sagging. That the high temperatures observed (although not really observed but rather inferred) were what lead to the sagging model.
 
Quite the contrary.
The "squibs" are all nice but in the absence of accompanying 140 decibel booms capable of incurring temporary hearing loss to everyone within a quarter mile of the buildings, they seem to be far better explained by the displacement of air inside the building as the debris crashed down from above. Looks like you're back to square one
 
Once again that obsession with destroying columns. Why? Why do you insist in requiring explosives to destroy columns?

I see.

You are slowly moving closer and closer to the "official" explanation of events. I can see why you prefer to focus on irrelevant details such as insurance fraud rather than facing your own rapidly deteriorating belief system.

I've been there. Many of us here at the JREF forums have.

Hopefully, you will one day arrive at a position of rationality. Good luck to you.
 
What's up with this new crop of truthers and their minutiae?

When they noticed the scoreboard read 100 to nothing against them they decided to argue about the number of pixels in the scoreboard.
 
Quite the contrary. It is a very good explanation for the puffs seen way below the main cloud.

So we are back to explosives on the exterior truss seats then and not to a weakening of the span of the trusses? (BTW for the purposes of this conversation I don't think anyone gets confused between the 'main' trusses and the 'bridging' trisses)

After all a device designed to simply weaken the truss would be best placed in the center of the truss and not be powerful enough to blow windows out.

Further to that IIRC the puffs were shown to be dust and debis that acellerates away from the window indicating a continued and increasing force behind it. Whereas an explosive would not be able to accomplish this, air being expelled due to an acellerating falling mass, would be able to produce such an effect.
 

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