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Chaos Magic

Of course, I realise that AkuManiMani may not share Limbo's views on chaos magic. So, Aku, just tell us what chaos magic can do and we'll crack on with that demonstration. It'll certainly shut all those close-minded skeptics up when you show them what chaos magic can do.
Well someone should tell us what chaos magic can do and how we can test this.

I am still waiting to find our what the evaluatable claims of the mystics mentioned in the OP are.

After that a specific and detailed description of how to test it would be good.

But I am not sure who is left who is defending the claims in the OP.

Or if anyone, including Limbo, was ever serious about those claims in the first place.

This thread is all derail, no mainline.
 
Wow, you guys don't waste any time to jumping right back to your self-congratulatory circlej**k, do ya? What a joke :rolleyes:

Why don't you show us chaos magic in action? We are just amusing ourselves until you or Limbo actually do something.
 
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But you have argued elsewhere that human concsiousness as we experience it could be the function of things other than human brains.

That it could be the function, at least theoretically, of people doing calculations on paper, or of millions of distinct electronic devices spread out in space and not communicating with each other.
Yep. All of which are corporeal.
 
Wow, you guys don't waste any time to jumping right back to your self-congratulatory circlej**k, do ya? What a joke :rolleyes:

Why don't you show us chaos magic in action? We are just amusing ourselves until you or Limbo actually do something.

So because I've contrary views I'm somehow lumped in with the OP? At what point have I ever advocated 'chaos magic'? Like I said before, I don't know any more about it than you do.
 
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I take it you're not going to acknowledge the fact that your core epistemological position is complete nonsense?

Off topic. The subject of this thread is chaos magic,feel free to start another thread.

The subject of this thread stopped being about 'chaos magic' a long time ago. If Limbo ever decides to come back to this sordid mess of a 'discussion' we'll talk about it. Either way though, the Pixy has a long history if turning tail whenever he's proven fundamentally wrong or caught in a lie. I doubt he'll be addressing the issue in this or any other thread.
 
Uhm, Pixy, there were two highlighted sentences; Both were Argent's. What posts have you been reading?
There was one, it was yours. You've lost your place in the discussion.

In anycase, its still a statement of fact that I've had repeated demands to recall more details of my experiences despite the insistence that my recollections are unreliable.
Yes. So?

Right, right, like your whole "magic elves" strawman?
Really, that's rather a tinman; it's actually more coherent than anything you've said.

I've recognized that that was your core position even before this train wreck of a thread began.
Okey dokey.

No such thing as what, PixyMisa? Your "magic elves" strawman, or autonomous intelligences independent of an individual brain?
Either; the two are thus equivalent.

Pixy, I hope for your sake that that was an honest mistake and not a deliberate misrepresentation on your part [you've indulged in such behavior so frequently that, at this point, I can't help but to suspect that it's intentional dishonesty]. My exact words were:
"The known is inherently a bounded subset of the unbounded unknown."​
Yes, that's what you said. That's mathematical gibberish. If we try to interpret it as something meaningful, the best we can come up with is a simple falsehood.

[Irrelevant basic set stuff snipped]

It does not follow that the superset is necessarily bounded by the subset, even though the subset may contain elements of the superset.
The known is, by definition, not a subset of the unknown, so that's irrelevant.

Even disregarding your deliberate misrepresentation of both my argument and the properties of subsets/supersets, your statement that "the unknown is bounded by the known" is absurd. The logical implication of your position is that knowledge of anything is equivalent to knowledge of everything -- i.e. omniscience.
No. It is logically impossible to reach that conclusion from the stated premise.

Actually this is a misrepresentation of my actual position. What I'm saying is we don't know X, therefore we cannot speak definitively of Y because we lack the requisite knowledge.
Two problems there.

First, this is not in fact what you argue.

Second, your claims that we don't know X are almost invariably false-to-fact.

Understandably you'd have a problem with such an admission because is runs directly counter to your megalomaniacal delusions of omniscience.
Whose megalomaniacal delusions of omniscience?

Except that everything we know about physics, chemistry, biology, neuroscience, and computer science tells us nothing about what minds actually are or exactly how they're are related to those fields.
There you go; as blatant and absurd a falsehood as anyone could possibly ask for.

Hence, why we are currently unable to answer the questions I posed earlier.
All your questions have been answered. You don't like the answers, but that's your problem, not ours. And your questions are almost always based on false assumptions, which again we've been over dozens of times, but you have still failed to grasp.

Quick recap:

What is it about particular neural processes that causes some sensory input to be felt as a particular sensation or experience?
Self-reference.

What physical property differentiates the quality of these experiences?
It's not a property, it's just the organisation.

How is this process expressed thru the biochemistry of neurons?
It's no different to the biochemistry of any other neuron. Stop looking for magic.

What part of the system actually has the experience(s) and what are the relevant physical properties of this portion of the system that causes it to be subjectively sensible?
The system has the experience. Stop looking for magic. There are no special properties in that portion of the system. Stop looking for magic.

Since you seem to be so confident that we have such sufficient knowledge why don't you try having a crack at it...?
All those qestions have been answered for you. You have made no coherent response at any time. As I said, this is your problem, not mine.
 
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There is no such thing as a "pain gene", per se. What there are are genes that act as the templates for proteins necessary for cells to produce pain receptors. At this point we're still unable to discern whether questions like the ones I posed above are meaningful, let alone provide adequate answers to them. For all we know, what we call 'consciousness' may not even necessarily be a product of neurochemistry but some supervening [meta]physical process acting on/thru it.

delete
 
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The subject of this thread stopped being about 'chaos magic' a long time ago. If Limbo ever decides to come back to this sordid mess of a 'discussion' we'll talk about it. Either way though, the Pixy has a long history if turning tail whenever he's proven fundamentally wrong or caught in a lie. I doubt he'll be addressing the issue in this or any other thread.

Odd how the universal becomes personal.
 
The subject of this thread stopped being about 'chaos magic' a long time ago. If Limbo ever decides to come back to this sordid mess of a 'discussion' we'll talk about it. Either way though, the Pixy has a long history if turning tail whenever he's proven fundamentally wrong or caught in a lie. I doubt he'll be addressing the issue in this or any other thread.
Black Knight fallacy.
 
AkuManiMani, please stop trying to derail this thread. Show us some chaos magic.
 
</yawn>

Yet another exercise in pedantic tedium from none other than the PixyMisa. Lets see if I can do it nearly as well... ;)

Uhm, Pixy, there were two highlighted sentences; Both were Argent's. What posts have you been reading?
There was one, it was yours. You've lost your place in the discussion.

You're a baldfaced liar.

In anycase, its still a statement of fact that I've had repeated demands to recall more details of my experiences despite the insistence that my recollections are unreliable.
Yes. So?

So you're making a red-herring of a moot point.

Right, right, like your whole "magic elves" strawman?
Really, that's rather a tinman; it's actually more coherent than anything you've said.

Equivocation and more strawmanning.

I've recognized that that was your core position even before this train wreck of a thread began.
Okey dokey.
:p


No such thing as what, PixyMisa? Your "magic elves" strawman, or autonomous intelligences independent of an individual brain?
Either; the two are thus equivalent.

This coming from a person who's argued that consciousness is not medium dependent...? :rolleyes:

Pixy, I hope for your sake that that was an honest mistake and not a deliberate misrepresentation on your part [you've indulged in such behavior so frequently that, at this point, I can't help but to suspect that it's intentional dishonesty]. My exact words were:
"The known is inherently a bounded subset of the unbounded unknown."​
Yes, that's what you said. That's mathematical gibberish. If we try to interpret it as something meaningful, the best we* can come up with is a simple falsehood.

By "we" I assume you're referring to yourself and the voices in your head. Are they whats behind your intellectual dishonesty?

[Irrelevant basic set stuff snipped]

Funny how anything that directly contradicts your tripe is "irrelevant"...

It does not follow that the superset is necessarily bounded by the subset, even though the subset may contain elements of the superset.
The known is, by definition, not a subset of the unknown, so that's irrelevant.

No.

Even disregarding your deliberate misrepresentation of both my argument and the properties of subsets/supersets, your statement that "the unknown is bounded by the known" is absurd. The logical implication of your position is that knowledge of anything is equivalent to knowledge of everything -- i.e. omniscience.
No. It is logically impossible to reach that conclusion from the stated premise.

Wrong.

Actually this is a misrepresentation of my actual position. What I'm saying is we don't know X, therefore we cannot speak definitively of Y because we lack the requisite knowledge.
Two problems there.

First, this is not in fact what you argue.

I've just argued it and it's what I've been arguing. Ergo, contrary to your boneheaded counter-assertions, its what I'm arguing.

Second, your claims that we don't know X are almost invariably false-to-fact.

Also wrong.

Understandably you'd have a problem with such an admission because is runs directly counter to your megalomaniacal delusions of omniscience.
Whose megalomaniacal delusions of omniscience?

I see you're even more confused that I thought.

Except that everything we know about physics, chemistry, biology, neuroscience, and computer science tells us nothing about what minds actually are or exactly how they're are related to those fields.
There you go; as blatant and absurd a falsehood as anyone could possibly ask for.

Hence, why we are currently unable to answer the questions I posed earlier.
All your questions have been answered.

More baldfaced lies on your part. I suppose if you make a concentrated effort to disregard your blatant disconnect with reality it really isn't there, huh?


What is it about particular neural processes that causes some sensory input to be felt as a particular sensation or experience?
Self-reference.

Define.

What physical property differentiates the quality of these experiences?
It's not a property, it's just the organisation.

Of what?

How is this process expressed thru the biochemistry of neurons?
It's no different to the biochemistry of any other neuron. Stop looking for magic.

I'm looking for something better than your regurgitated brain-farts.

What part of the system actually has the experience(s) and what are the relevant physical properties of this portion of the system that causes it to be subjectively sensible?
The system has the experience. Stop looking for magic. There are no special properties in that portion of the system. Stop looking for magic.

Misrepresentation, and also wrong.

Since you seem to be so confident that we have such sufficient knowledge why don't you try having a crack at it...?
All those qestions have been answered for you. You have made no coherent response at any time. As I said, this is your problem, not mine.

Wrong :rolleyes:
 
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AkuManiMani, please stop trying to derail this thread. Show us some chaos magic.

"Chaos magic" has not been suitably defined by the OP. Therefore I consider verbally beating on your mascot PixyMisa to be "Chaos Magic" -- It has thus been demonstrated :p
 
"Chaos magic" has not been suitably defined by the OP. Therefore I consider verbally beating on your mascot PixyMisa to be "Chaos Magic" -- It has thus been demonstrated :p

Please stop trying to derail this thread. Show us your chaos magic.
 
</yawn>

Yet another exercise in pedantic tedium from none other than the PixyMisa. Lets see if I can do it nearly as well...
You're not actually reading anything anyone writes, are you?

You're a baldfaced liar.
No, but I'm mistaken. Sorry, yes, you highlited Pure Argent's comments.

That said, you are still and always have been wrong in your interpretation of what Argent said.

So you're making a red-herring of a moot point.
No; you've spent considerable time attacking Pure Argent based on your misinterpretation of what he said. Did he ask you for details? No. Therefore your statement was false.

Equivocation and more strawmanning.
What is the difference between non-existent impossible magic elves and non-existent impossible non-corporeal minds, exactly? And how do you know this?

If you want to claim that my reference to "magic elves" is a strawman of your claim to "non-corporeal minds", then you have to have both a coherent definition of your "non-corporeal minds" and a better supported mechanism than your usual argument from asserted ignorance.

This coming from a person who's argued that consciousness is not medium dependent...?
Information is medium-independent. That's simply a fact.

That means that it doesn't matter what the medium is. It does not mean that it doesn't matter whether there's a medium.

This has, of course, been explained to you dozens of times.

By "we" I assume you're referring to yourself and the voices in your head.
Try reading the thread for once, rather than devoting all your efforts to inane ad hominems.

Funny how anything that directly contradicts your tripe is "irrelevant".
It doesn't contradict anything I said.

You try to lecture us on set theory, and then claim that one of a pair of by defintion disjoint sets can be a subset of the other?

No. No, I don't think so.

You are a very, very confused man.

I've just argued it and it's what I've been arguing. Ergo, contrary to your boneheaded counter-assertions, its what I'm arguing.
No, in fact. I mean, if it were you'd still be wrong, because your premises are false, but at least you'd be logically consistent.

But no; your usual arguments (as opposed to this meta-argument) are just collections of logical fallacies.

Also wrong.
Nope. We've already established this; your assertions of universal ignorance on whatever subject may be convenient are simply baseless - and in many cases, actually impossible.

I see you're even more confused that I thought.
I really don't think you do.

More baldfaced lies on your part. I suppose if you make a concentrated effort to disregard your blatant disconnect with reality it really isn't there, huh?
You're actually denying that those questions have been answered, rather than asserting you reject the answers?

Since you have, in the past, responded to and rejected those same answers, there's a serious disconnect there.

Reference to self.

Of the system.

I'm looking for something better than your regurgitated brain-farts.
You're looking for magic. That's your problem; it's always your problem.

What's the difference between the biochemistry or physics of a neuron involved in consciousness and one that's not?

Nothing. There's no difference whatsoever.

Consciousness is a property of the system, not the neuron. You're looking for an emergent property at the wrong level, and you're never going to understand anything until you give that up.

It's like looking for the wetness of water in hydrogen or oxygen themselves. You just ain't gonna find it there, 'cause that's the wrong level.

Misrepresentation, and also wrong.
No, it's not a misrepresentation. You might not like the word when I use it, but it's entirely appropriate, and it's entirely accurate.

You want consciousness to be something special. It's not. It's just a computer circuit with a particular kind of feedback loop.

All the questions have been answered, and the mistakes you made in asking them have been explained.

Again. Not that anything changed after the last time this was all explained to you.

You want magic.

There is no magic.

Making an utter hash out of set theory doesn't mean you can argue for the existence of magic; it just means you've based your entire worldview on an error a bright twelve-year-old could straighten out for you if you would just listen.

Try that, for once. Rather than deciding that everyone who disagrees with you (and face it, you're outnumbered) has to be both dishonest and stupid, try examining your premises. Because they're very badly broken.
 
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You're not actually reading anything anyone writes, are you?

I thought we had established this five or so pages back.

No; you've spent considerable time attacking Pure Argent based on your misinterpretation of what he said. Did he ask you for details? No. Therefore your statement was false.

I've explained this already. He ignored it then, too.
 

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