Building demolished from the top down.

The outer columns that have MORE weight on them will FAIL faster than those with LESS weight on them.

We've said it to you more than a dozen times. Why do you keep missing that?

Yes, but we also need to consider that the columns with more weight are also stronger (designed to carry more weight after all). Thus they are harder to pull in by the sagging floor. Although I've heard you say what you mention over and over again I haven't seen you or anyone else take this issue into consideration. I'm sure you're not going to disregard this aspect as it would be a serious mistake on your or anyone else's part.
 
How much stronger?

Actually if you multiply damaged column count times ksi you come up with the conclusion that there were more ksi's removed (so to speak) from WTC 1 than 2.



50 55 60 65 70 75 80 85 90 100 Total ksi removed
WTC 1 150 1485 1020 325 0 0 0 0 0 0 2980
WTC 2 50 330 780 1040 140 75 80 0 180 100 2775

So there was more damage done to the tower that fell later. This goes against many of the assumptions thrown out here against my arguments.
 
...
So there was more damage done to the tower that fell later. This goes against many of the assumptions thrown out here against my arguments.

I agree that this focus on mass alone is too simple and not very sciency.
The more significant factor was probably that the damage to the south tower was more asymmetric, which led to less opportunities for load redistribution.

Congrats for making us all chase your high-speed goalposts :D



I wish you would tell us your complete theory of what happened on 9/11, though.
 
Actually if you multiply damaged column count times ksi you come up with the conclusion that there were more ksi's removed (so to speak) from WTC 1 than 2.



50 55 60 65 70 75 80 85 90 100 Total ksi removed
WTC 1 150 1485 1020 325 0 0 0 0 0 0 2980
WTC 2 50 330 780 1040 140 75 80 0 180 100 2775

So there was more damage done to the tower that fell later. This goes against many of the assumptions thrown out here against my arguments.

So what do you think happened, that fits observation better than what is generally believed to have happened?
 
Why don't you follow your own advice and talk to a structural engineer before posting what you did without concern for a little prior thought.

This coming from the guy who compared the heat conductivity of a COPPER heat sink in a PC to a STEEL box columns of a building structure.

What does that do to your resultant claim if it's based on such flawed thinking?
 
He didn't take any notice when I said that. Let's see if you have any more luck.

Dave

Oh, but I did.

You see here (http://www.ara.com/Projects/SVO/NIST_WTC.htm)

That the damage to the upper impact zone's perimeter is more profound (we've seen that in the previous post)

You can see here
WTC1Damage.jpg


That the perimeter damage and the core damage is greater and in the case of the perimeter damage further away from the center of the building.

In WTC 2

WTC2Damage.jpg


The damage is as you say "more asymmetrical", but it is also closer to the perimeter wall which is also less damaged than the WTC 1 perimeter.

So while the asymmetrical theory has its merit we have to consider that in WTC 2 only a corner area is damaged, damaged in a lesser amount and the damaged area has undamaged structures closer by . Meanwhile in WTC 1 a larger amount of the perimeter is damaged, damaged so further away from any supporting core columns and the core columns are also reported as having suffered greater loss when you add up all the ksi's (5427 vs 5216 for WTC 2 calculated from reported core columns damaged and their ksi rating as shown in http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_june04/appendixe.pdf, page E-14)
 
This coming from the guy who compared the heat conductivity of a COPPER heat sink in a PC to a STEEL box columns of a building structure.

I never compared the heat conductivity of "a COPPER heat sink in a PC to a STEEL box". I brought the images up to show how a narrow piece of metal can be used to carry heat away effectively, thus showing that the support connectors would transfer heat from the floor to the columns. Surely not as good as copper, but not as bad as wood either. So the point of heat transfer should be at least considered. Not brushed away in a typical debunker hand wave.
 
The damage is as you say "more asymmetrical", but it is also closer to the perimeter wall which is also less damaged than the WTC 1 perimeter.

So while the asymmetrical theory has its merit we have to consider that in WTC 2 only a corner area is damaged, damaged in a lesser amount and the damaged area has undamaged structures closer by . Meanwhile in WTC 1 a larger amount of the perimeter is damaged, damaged so further away from any supporting core columns and the core columns are also reported as having suffered greater loss when you add up all the ksi's (5427 vs 5216 for WTC 2 calculated from reported core columns damaged and their ksi rating as shown in http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_june04/appendixe.pdf, page E-14)

Simple arithmetic isn't all there is to it, though; you can't determine the loss of load-bearing ability of a structure by simply subtracting the strength of the failed elements. There's also load path redistribution, which gives rise to imaging effects in which the members directly opposite a severed member will also be unable to carry any load. So, the more asymmetric the damage, the more likely the structure is to collapse.

Here's a simple example. Imagine two horizontal beams, each separately supported by five columns, each capable of supporting slightly over half the weight of the beam. Now, remove two of the beams supporting one column, and three of the beams supporting the other. Does either of them collapse, and if so, which one? The answer is, it depends which of the columns is removed. If, from one beam, you remove the three central columns, leaving two columns at the ends of the beam, each will bear half the weight of the beam, and the structure will not collapse. If, from the othe beam, you remove the left hand two columns, the right hand two will bear virtually no weight at all, and the centre column will bear the entire weight. The centre column will therefore fail, transferring all the weight and a considerable torque to the inside right column; that will fail, transferring all the weight and an even greater torque to the outside right one. So one structure, with barely enough strength to stay up, doesn't collapse, yet the other, with more than 50% reserve, collapses.

I'm not a structural engineer, but I appreciate that structural engineering is vastly more complex than just adding up all the ksi's and seeing if there's a big enough total to make the building stay up. If I'm wrong in that appreciation, no doubt one of the structural engineers on the forum will point it out, then I'll ask him why he's paid so much.

Dave
 
So, the more asymmetric the damage, the more likely the structure is to collapse.

So you're saying that had the airplane hit even more to the corner and thus made it even more asymmetrical that i would make the structure more likely to collapse? Simple yes no question will suffice.
 
It was, by NIST, quantitatively, using well-tried and tested heat transfer models. Putting up pictures of CPU heat sinks was an attempt to brush that away in a hand wave.

Dave

Ok now were do you think the fires were more intense, in the floor area or in the core area?
 
I never compared the heat conductivity of "a COPPER heat sink in a PC to a STEEL box". I brought the images up to show how a narrow piece of metal can be used to carry heat away effectively, thus showing that the support connectors would transfer heat from the floor to the columns. Surely not as good as copper, but not as bad as wood either. So the point of heat transfer should be at least considered. Not brushed away in a typical debunker hand wave.

Read the part I bolded.

You made a blanket statement WITHOUT considering the material used to get your point across. Your point being that a NARROW PIECE OF METAL can be used to carry heat away effectively.

So the same size copper piece would be as effective as the same size piece made of carbon steel? Yes or no?
 
So you're saying that had the airplane hit even more to the corner and thus made it even more asymmetrical that i would make the structure more likely to collapse? Simple yes no question will suffice.

No, I'm not saying that.

Since you clearly haven't understood what I am saying, would you like me to try to put it more simply?

Dave
 
Ok now were do you think the fires were more intense, in the floor area or in the core area?

I suggest you look in the appropriate section of the NIST report, where the intensities of the fires and the temperatures produced are modelled. What I personally think is irrelevant and highly prone to error.

Dave
 
It doesn't matter. You have no evidence for any sort of "inside job" or cover-up or conspiracy, or whatever it is that you so dearly want to believe in. That is why you want to bog the discussion down with endless arguments about peripheral issues that have no bearing on the topic, which is:

"Building demolished from the top down" (disproving the truther claim that a building cannot collapse from gravity alone, but requires the use of explosives)

This post from last night pretty much sums it up for me. Can we retire this thread now?
 

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