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Video Game Rape Fest

IIRC, there were few complaints about Dungeon Keeper, even though it was worse than Duke Nukem (dudalb noted the Dark Mistress) in terms of you being encouraged to torture your enemies (either conversion, dying and turning into ghosts and/or passing information)

I honestly think that Nukem had a first person perspective had a lot to do with it.
Once in a while a Third Person game ,like "Postal" or the Grand Theft Auto games, create a controversy, but generally it is the shooters that people get upset about..they probably feel the First Person prespective somehow "encourages" violence more then a Third Person.
And I think my comparasion with the great Comic Book Controversy of the 50's stands.

For those who do not know about this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Wertham
 
Agreed completely. I think the problem with Gumboot's point is that it really just seems to show that the term "desensitisation" is meaningless. If people aren't any more likely to commit violence, and aren't any more accepting of it outside the context of games and TV, then how does it mean anything to say they're "desensitised"?


I don't believe that's what I said at all. I don't think you read my post properly.


In fact, Gumboot's entire argument seems to be that there is actually no evidence that this happens, but some people believe it anyway so they need to add in extra ideas to explain why all this desensitisation has exactly no effect on people's behaviour.

This isn't what I said at all. Please re-read my post.

I said there's three aspects that control a person's ability to commit violence. Motivation, ethics, and sensitization to violence. Each of these three involve obstacles that in concert prevent violence, and each of these obstacles can be overcome. The three interact directly; for example if motivation is strong enough to commit violence it may overcome sensitisation to the violence. If your sense of righteousness is strong enough it may overcome the fact that you don't want said person to die.

Violence in games and so forth has the effect of weakening or disabling obstacles in one of those three factors - sensitisation to violence. The degree to which this will be successful depends on the person, the nature of content they're exposed to, and the level of exposure. The results will vary enormously.

Even assuming the obstacles of sensitisation are totally overcome - meaning 100% desensitisation - this does not mean a person will commit violence. BUT, it is one less factor that could prevent someone committing violence. If you like it makes it easier for them to commit violence.

To what degree do violent games desensitise people to violence? Well we don't know. And part of the reason we don't know is because both sides of the debate have worked themselves into such a hysteria that no one seems willing to discuss or study the matter rationally.

Pro-gamers refuse to even contemplate the notion that violent content might desensitise them to violence.

At the opposite end of the spectrum the anti-game crowd call for their outright banning and refer to them as "murder simulators" leaping straight from "they desensitise people" to "desensitised people are killers".
 
Once in a while a Third Person game ,like "Postal" or the Grand Theft Auto games, create a controversy, but generally it is the shooters that people get upset about..they probably feel the First Person prespective somehow "encourages" violence more then a Third Person.



The reason for this, at least according to Dave Grossman (who calls FPS's "Murder Simulators") is that an FPS mimics the conditioning techniques used by the military to enable their soldiers to overcome a natural resistance to killing which had in previous wars, resulted in most soldiers refusing to shoot at the enemy.

Having said that, it's unclear from Grossman's arguments whether he includes all FPSs, or only those arcade style ones where you physically hold a gun and shoot it at a screen. (In any event, using his argument the ones that use an actual gun prop would be worse than a standard FPS).
 
I don't believe that's what I said at all. I don't think you read my post properly.




This isn't what I said at all. Please re-read my post.

I said there's three aspects that control a person's ability to commit violence. Motivation, ethics, and sensitization to violence. Each of these three involve obstacles that in concert prevent violence, and each of these obstacles can be overcome. The three interact directly; for example if motivation is strong enough to commit violence it may overcome sensitisation to the violence. If your sense of righteousness is strong enough it may overcome the fact that you don't want said person to die.

Violence in games and so forth has the effect of weakening or disabling obstacles in one of those three factors - sensitisation to violence. The degree to which this will be successful depends on the person, the nature of content they're exposed to, and the level of exposure. The results will vary enormously.

Even assuming the obstacles of sensitisation are totally overcome - meaning 100% desensitisation - this does not mean a person will commit violence. BUT, it is one less factor that could prevent someone committing violence. If you like it makes it easier for them to commit violence.

To what degree do violent games desensitise people to violence? Well we don't know. And part of the reason we don't know is because both sides of the debate have worked themselves into such a hysteria that no one seems willing to discuss or study the matter rationally.

Pro-gamers refuse to even contemplate the notion that violent content might desensitise them to violence.

At the opposite end of the spectrum the anti-game crowd call for their outright banning and refer to them as "murder simulators" leaping straight from "they desensitise people" to "desensitised people are killers"
.

Pro-gamers actually play the games and therefore have much higher standing on whether violent content desensitizes anyone - the anti-gamers on the other hand don't play the games and it would be generous to say their stance is pulled out of their ass.
 
Pro-gamers actually play the games and therefore have much higher standing on whether violent content desensitizes anyone.


Not really. They could quiet easily be desensitised without knowing it.
 
the anti-gamers on the other hand don't play the games and it would be generous to say their stance is pulled out of their ass.


How do you know they don't play the games? And while what you describe is certainly true of some (even many) of them, others who have warned about computer game violence are people who are extremely knowledgeable about desensitisation and almost certainly know more about it than your average computer gamer.
 
Not really. They could quiet easily be desensitised without knowing it.

What would be the symptoms of being desensitized? And how would you know if they're telling the truth? For instance, I'm an avid gamer, and I like my games violent and or creepy. I'm not desensitized, and I say that based on my own experience. How do you know if I'm being honest?

It seems like you've made up your mind about gamers and if they say you're wrong, well they must not know what they're saying.
 
How do you know they don't play the games? And while what you describe is certainly true of some (even many) of them, others who have warned about computer game violence are people who are extremely knowledgeable about desensitisation and almost certainly know more about it than your average computer gamer.

Because those who blame some medium (be it the comic book scare, or the dime novels blamed for Jesse Pomeroy, or Marilyn Manson blamed for Columbine, or video games for whatever other atrocity it's convenient to blame them for) for society's ills never risk their pet bias by testing it against reality. Such people have never been honest and always have an agenda, and I don't trust them to be honest, let alone consider than they know my own mind better than I do.
 
Very nice post. I consider myself desensitized to violence since childhood. I saw horror movies like Evil Dead when I was about 8. I saw very gory images in school when the thing to do was check out rotten.com plus I witnessed a motorcycle death on the highway when I was about 12 that was a bloody mess. And, of course, I was playing graphically violent games since I had access to them (I think Doom and Wolfenstein were the first ones I played that were violent). I was also desensitized to sex/nudity from a young age. By the miracle of Xenu I have never gotten in a physical fight with anyone or went on a rape rampage. I was taught respect from a young age. The difference between right and wrong. Not to fight unless it's a dire situation. Even basic gun safety like don't point it at anything unless you are ready to kill it before I even touched a gun. To give everyone the respect that I would want from them. I agree a big problem is people (especially parents) are such lousy teachers and role models to their children.
To that point I grew up on fighters like Mortal Kombat, Killer Instinct, Street Fighter,ect. and have never been in a fight in my life (or got into any big trouble at school...tho I wasn't a great student). Well not counting arguments with my brother that got a little physical when I was young. :p
 
I'm completely desensitized to violence thanks to 30+ years of playing video games...specifically, I'm desensitized to video game violence.
 
Because those who blame some medium (be it the comic book scare, or the dime novels blamed for Jesse Pomeroy, or Marilyn Manson blamed for Columbine, or video games for whatever other atrocity it's convenient to blame them for) for society's ills never risk their pet bias by testing it against reality. Such people have never been honest and always have an agenda, and I don't trust them to be honest, let alone consider than they know my own mind better than I do.

Well, I would say bias goes both ways. People don't like to think badly of themselves, and desensitization is typically regarded as a negative trait. I think many people (although not all) that are desensitized will not recognize or admit it all that easily.

I don't think this is actually a problem, for many of the same reasons gumboot mentioned, but I do think that desensitization does happen, and not just in that tiny fraction of the population that has some prior susceptibility to violent/criminal thought. Again, in my own personal experience - it's certainly happened with me, and I don't think it'd apply just to in-game events either. Thankfully, that assumption's never actually been tested yet, but... I don't know. I'm certainly willing to tolerate more violence in my media than I would have said was even possible as recently as six months ago. I don't know if that counts as desensitization, exactly, though.
 
Ever since Dig Dug came out I've had the urge to pump gophers full of air until they explode.
 
What would be the symptoms of being desensitized?

I don't know.


And how would you know if they're telling the truth? For instance, I'm an avid gamer, and I like my games violent and or creepy. I'm not desensitized, and I say that based on my own experience. How do you know if I'm being honest?

One would presume there would need to be some sort of objective way of determining desensitisation.


It seems like you've made up your mind about gamers and if they say you're wrong, well they must not know what they're saying.

Not at all. I've merely made an observation about many pro-game people. Not all. I was identifying the extreme views that seem to dominate the debate. Extreme views are never productive in terms of rationally debating an issue. And as I am sure you well know, anecdote is not useful. It might be that violent games haven't desensitised you to violence. I've never claimed they have. That doesn't mean they can't desensitise people.

Of course you might be right. Maybe they don't desensitise people. But many people wouldn't know, because they seem to be unwilling to even contemplate the notion. That's an irrational and extremist position, and doesn't contribute constructive to debate.
 
I was identifying the extreme views that seem to dominate the debate. Extreme views are never productive in terms of rationally debating an issue.

Fallacy of the middle ground. Just because there are two "extreme" positions doesn't mean the truth is somewhere in between. Has it occurred to you that many of these "irrational" and "extremist" people might have given the issue consideration and rejected due to it being completely unfounded speculation without so much as one tiny bit of credible data to back it up despite ideologues trying for two decades to find and/or straight-up manufacture it?
 
Because those who blame some medium (be it the comic book scare, or the dime novels blamed for Jesse Pomeroy, or Marilyn Manson blamed for Columbine, or video games for whatever other atrocity it's convenient to blame them for) for society's ills never risk their pet bias by testing it against reality. Such people have never been honest and always have an agenda, and I don't trust them to be honest, let alone consider than they know my own mind better than I do.



Wow. Amazing. In one post you attack me for dismissing all people of a particular view out of hand (something I never actually did) and in the very next post you do the very same thing.

Unimpressed.

I'm going to pick one person who is critical of computer games. Dave Grossman. I'm not picking him because I think he's completely right. I've discussed in other threads, in some detail, why I disagree with some of his arguments. But I'd like to explain why I think his views are worthy of being considered and listened to, and not dismissed wholesale as you're attempting to do.

Dave Grossman is actually Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman (US Army, retired), and Professor of Military Science at Arkansas State University. During his long and varied professional military career he served primarily in combat roles including the 82nd Airborne and the 75th Ranger Regiment. However he also had academic roles, ultimately as professor of psychology at West Point.

Grossman is one of the few people to actually study the psychology of killing; a body of academia for which he coined the term "killology" (I know, not very original). I thoroughly recommend his book On Killing.

From his own career experience and from his research, he can probably be regarded as a leading expert on desensitisation. The army, in general, are experts in it as they have deliberately developed sophisticated training regimes with that exact purpose in mind, and the results speak for themselves. During WW2 an estimated 10-15% of combat troops would engage the enemy. By Vietnam, new training techniques had risen that over 90%.

Grossman uses blunt language - he refers to light-gun FPSs as "murder simulators" and I'm inclined to suspect that his work has been exploited by those who just want to ban violent games outright - not something Grossman is aiming for.

More importantly, Grossman doesn't appear to have ulterior motives, and isn't trying to blame society's ills on a particular medium or single aspect. He has used a lot of his research to train law enforcement and military in new techniques for improving the outcome of lethal encounters, for providing coping mechanisms for people who have been exposed to violence, and he speaks widely in civilian circles on the various ways to reduce violence in society and deal with the aftermath of violent events.

As far as I'm aware he doesn't even want to ban violent computer games, but rather wants to better control access by children to all forms of violent media. And indeed, a common defense heard from pro-gamers (and one I am quick to make myself) is "This game isn't intended for children".

Is everything he says right? Are all of his conclusions 100% robust? No. But in general he knows what he's talking about, and he should not be dismissed out of hand.
 
One would presume there would need to be some sort of objective way of determining desensitisation.

The Voigt-Kampff empathy response test. You measure pupil response, blush response, breathing, heart rate, etc. while exposing the testee to a series of images and questions, chosen to be either disturbing or mudane. Then you shoot them, demonstrating a complete lack of empathy on your part, and leaving readers and later, moviegoers wondering...
 
Grossman uses blunt language - he refers to light-gun FPSs as "murder simulators" and I'm inclined to suspect that his work has been exploited by those who just want to ban violent games outright - not something Grossman is aiming for.

More importantly, Grossman doesn't appear to have ulterior motives, and isn't trying to blame society's ills on a particular medium or single aspect. He has used a lot of his research to train law enforcement and military in new techniques for improving the outcome of lethal encounters, for providing coping mechanisms for people who have been exposed to violence, and he speaks widely in civilian circles on the various ways to reduce violence in society and deal with the aftermath of violent events.

As far as I'm aware he doesn't even want to ban violent computer games, but rather wants to better control access by children to all forms of violent media. And indeed, a common defense heard from pro-gamers (and one I am quick to make myself) is "This game isn't intended for children".

Is everything he says right? Are all of his conclusions 100% robust? No. But in general he knows what he's talking about, and he should not be dismissed out of hand.

I don't know how it is in all stores but at Target now they card you if you buy a game. It doesn't matter how old you are. There was a granny in front of me one time and they carded her for a game. Amazing. Anyway I think most retailers are already responsible enough when it comes to not selling youngsters M rated games. The rest is up to the parents. That is unless they just give their kids a credit card. Then they can just go on steam or the PSN or XBL and download whatever they want.

I've never heard of Grossman. I might look into some of what he's said. I guess I don't understand why his focus is on light gun games? Just because you are holding a peripheral and also happens to be one way how the military/police train? What if there was a Kinect game where you pointed your fingers like it was a gun and that was the weapon? Would this also be a danger? I think most light gun games (especially arcade ones) are not even realistic. You are mostly fighting terminators, animals (in those abysmal yet endless supply of hunting games) aliens and zombies (oh and ducks if you were a murderous child with a zapper during the NES days). The only ones that comes to mind where you fight people exclusively are Time Crisis and Virtua Cop. I don't really get the correlation here. I never seem to hear this kind of outrage when it comes to airsoft or paintball where you are actually firing something that shoots projectiles which hurt other people. They are regarded as fun and recreational sports. Games are, of course, murder simulators though.
 

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