Chaos Magic

[Katopale]

This entire thread is a sigil which I shall use to cast Fireball.

+2000 dmg from all the straw provided by Aku.

 

[tsig]

Yes. Wizards,do your stuff!

You're a soccer fan?


http://kcwizards.theoffside.com/

 

[Nonpareil]

This entire thread is a sigil which I shall use to cast Fireball.

+2000 dmg from all the straw provided by Aku.

I felt a great disturbance in the Force... it was as if a thousand straw men cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.

 

[dafydd]

You're a soccer fan?


http://kcwizards.theoffside.com/

Wizards that actually exist! There is a turn up for the book.

 

[dafydd]

Except that he already told you exactly where it occurred.

But, as you have continually demonstrated that not only do you not understand my position but that you are unwilling to even attempt to do so, and instead prefer to continue strawmanning and spouting insults, I really see no point in continuing this conversation.

As for "wizards, do your stuff"... well, I would, except that I have no drugs. Anyone else?

Remember the guy here last year who cursed some of us and sent a demon to punish us? Said demon still hasn't turned up. Maybe his mistake was using organized magic instead of chaos magic.

 

[tsig]

Remember the guy here last year who cursed some of us and sent a demon to punish us? Said demon still hasn't turned up. Maybe his mistake was using organized magic instead of chaos magic.

Maybe he didn't turn left at Albuquerque.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Paradigm-shifting as described in the OP is actually a pretty good example of the basis behind a lot of magickal practice.

 

[dafydd]

Paradigm-shifting as described in the OP is actually a pretty good example of the basis behind a lot of magickal practice.

There is no such thing. It's spelled magical nowadays. Paradigm shifting,that is a good example of new age babble.

 

[AvalonXQ]

There is no such thing.

There certainly is such a thing.

Paradigm shifting,that is a good example of new age babble.

Actually it's a good example of business babble, but the term is straightforward and makes a lot of sense.
Paradigm-shifting just means choosing to look at something from a different perspective, using a different point of view and different assumptions.
I think a really great example of paradigm-shifting is Randi's treatment of the McDonnell Laboratory and other similar "psychic investigation" practices.
The established paradigm was cooperative clinical investigation of phenomena from a laboratory science paradigm. As Randi has repeatedly pointed out, Uri Geller and his ilk can really thrive under this sort of open, collaborative attitude.
Enter a magician's paradigm. A magician is expecting slight-of-hand and deception; they thrive on the acknowledgment that human perception can be fooled. Shift a Geller experiment into a magician's paradigm, where witnessed phenomena are suspect rather than the rock-solid basis of analysis, and where the "psychic" is generally viewed with skepticism rather than acceptance, and his abilities evaporate. The assumptions and point of view are different, so the conclusions are different as well.
The underlying perception of magickal practice, as I understand it, is that not just the facts we can determine from observation but the fundamental realities of the world are paradigm-based. Your perception of the world can have a direct impact on what occurs in the world, and by viewing reality in a fundamentally altered way you can alter reality itself.
This particular belief is exceptionally hard to properly test under controlled conditions, since the existence of a skeptical observer actually alters the conditions.

 

[dafydd]

There certainly is such a thing.


Actually it's a good example of business babble, but the term is straightforward and makes a lot of sense.
Paradigm-shifting just means choosing to look at something from a different perspective, using a different point of view and different assumptions.
I think a really great example of paradigm-shifting is Randi's treatment of the McDonnell Laboratory and other similar "psychic investigation" practices.
The established paradigm was cooperative clinical investigation of phenomena from a laboratory science paradigm. As Randi has repeatedly pointed out, Uri Geller and his ilk can really thrive under this sort of open, collaborative attitude.
Enter a magician's paradigm. A magician is expecting slight-of-hand and deception; they thrive on the acknowledgment that human perception can be fooled. Shift a Geller experiment into a magician's paradigm, where witnessed phenomena are suspect rather than the rock-solid basis of analysis, and where the "psychic" is generally viewed with skepticism rather than acceptance, and his abilities evaporate. The assumptions and point of view are different, so the conclusions are different as well.
The underlying perception of magickal practice, as I understand it, is that not just the facts we can determine from observation but the fundamental realities of the world are paradigm-based. Your perception of the world can have a direct impact on what occurs in the world, and by viewing reality in a fundamentally altered way you can alter reality itself.
This particular belief is exceptionally hard to properly test under controlled conditions, since the existence of a skeptical observer actually alters the conditions.

Your perception of the world cannot alter reality. Nobody can influence events or have a physical effect on another person by waving a dagger around,chucking salt about,mouthing nonsense,or drawing sigils. Yuri Geller is a fraud.I'm surprised that you are taken in by him. And you also brought in the old canard about a skeptic's presence stifling the physic powers. The eternal excuse.

 

[Resume]

since the existence of a skeptical observer actually alters the conditions.

Yes, having someone watch closely certainly prohibits your bending the spoon by slight of hand or misdirection. You then pretty much have to bend it using your telekinectic powers, which of course do not exist.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Yuri Geller is a fraud.I'm surprised that you are taken in by him.

What on earth did I say that led you to believe I am taken in by Uri Geller?

And you also brought in the old canard about a skeptic's presence stifling the physic powers. The eternal excuse.

"Eternal excuse" or not, it's consistent with the theory. The whole idea is "perception alters reality". Standard lab conditions won't work because the observers themselves alter the experiment.
Putting an unbeliever in a room to test the statement "Person A can levitate when at least ten believers and no unbelievers are in the room" isn't an appropriate test.

 

[Resume]

Putting an unbeliever in a room to test the statement "Person A can levitate when at least ten believers and no unbelievers are in the room" isn't an appropriate test.

Carp.

 

[dafydd]

Shift a Geller experiment into a magician's paradigm, where witnessed phenomena are suspect rather than the rock-solid basis of analysis, and where the "psychic" is generally viewed with skepticism rather than acceptance, and his abilities evaporate.

There you are. Geller claimed he was psychic,so I assumed that you included him.

 

[dafydd]

What on earth did I say that led you to believe I am taken in by Uri Geller?


"Eternal excuse" or not, it's consistent with the theory. The whole idea is "perception alters reality". Standard lab conditions won't work because the observers themselves alter the experiment.
Putting an unbeliever in a room to test the statement "Person A can levitate when at least ten believers and no unbelievers are in the room" isn't an appropriate test.

It would be a waste of time. Nobody can levitate,even if there were no unbelievers on Earth.

 

[dafydd]

What on earth did I say that led you to believe I am taken in by Uri Geller?


"Eternal excuse" or not, it's consistent with the theory. The whole idea is "perception alters reality". Standard lab conditions won't work because the observers themselves alter the experiment.
Putting an unbeliever in a room to test the statement "Person A can levitate when at least ten believers and no unbelievers are in the room" isn't an appropriate test.

How does perception alter reality? What is the mechanism? What is the nature of the effect that skeptics have on so-called psychics? Every woo merchant who has ever been tested under proper conditions has failed.The skeptic in the room is just an excuse.

 

[AvalonXQ]

There you are. Geller claimed he was psychic,so assumed that you included him.

Two somewhat unrelated things.
First: I gave the Randi example to try to explain paradigm-shifting in a mundane context. Paradigm-shifting is an important part of systems analysis and business management. It also explains how Randi can succeed where good laboratory scientists who are presumably just as smart as he is fail -- they're not in the right paradigm.
Magickal theory takes this one step further, claiming that the rules underlying reality itself are just as susceptible to paradigm-shift as our perception of reality. Skeptical observation is not a reasonable way to test these claims.
Second: Just because I believe a system of beliefs can be well-articulated and self-consistent, doesn't mean I agree with it. I personally believe that reality is objective, and so-called "psychics" are either deluded or frauds, often both.

And again, experiments that magickal theory would predict to yield negative results are not good experiments for attempting to disprove the theory.

 

[dafydd]

Two somewhat unrelated things.
First: I gave the Randi example to try to explain paradigm-shifting in a mundane context. Paradigm-shifting is an important part of systems analysis and business management. It also explains how Randi can succeed where good laboratory scientists who are presumably just as smart as he is fail -- they're not in the right paradigm.
Magickal theory takes this one step further, claiming that the rules underlying reality itself are just as susceptible to paradigm-shift as our perception of reality. Skeptical observation is not a reasonable way to test these claims.
Second: Just because I believe a system of beliefs can be well-articulated and self-consistent, doesn't mean I agree with it. I personally believe that reality is objective, and so-called "psychics" are either deluded or frauds, often both.

And again, experiments that magickal theory would predict to yield negative results are not good experiments for attempting to disprove the theory.

I agree with your point about business management,although the term paradigm shift reeks of corporate babble. As for magickal theory,there is no theory,just medieval mumbo-jumbo. There is nothing to prove.

 

[AvalonXQ]

As for magickal theory,there is no theory,just medieval mumbo-jumbo. There is nothing to prove.

And again, I disagree. There are affirmative claims describing how the world works. That's a theory, and it's reasonable to understand it better and to find ways to test it.

 

[dafydd]

And again, I disagree. There are affirmative claims describing how the world works. That's a theory, and it's reasonable to understand it better and to find ways to test it.

The paranormal has been tested and found not to exist. There is a reason why nobody has won the Million Dollar Challenge,and it's not because of the baleful influence of the nasty skeptics.