Building demolished from the top down.

[Java Man]

Are you argueing that because one cannot know for certain if a small amount of explosives were used that it is an equally valid theory of what caused the demise of the WTC structures?

That is known as an arguement from ignorance, a logical fallacy.

What we DO know is that the structures had major fires raging within them. The towers had significant structural damage as the fires broke out due to the aircraft impacts. We know that they were constructed with long span floor spaces and other idiosyncracies of construction. We have 100 years of science showing that steel is quite significantly affected by heat. All of these things contribute to bolstering the theory that the structures collapsed due to aircraft impact and fire.

The theories that introduce explosives or thermite do so with absolutly no evidence of the presence of those materials.

Now you would like like us to see that this video shows that only a small number of explosives need be used when in fact it illustrates that NO explosives are required to accomplish the results seen on 9/11.

The more you reduce the number/amount of explosives/incidiaries required, the closer you get to showing that none were needed(which answers the question as to why conspiracists usually do not try to make their senarios less complicated)

Excuse me, when did I mention explosives in the CD shown on the video? Clearly I'm addressing the differences in missing elements like outer and inner walls. By adding more differences to those already existing he demerits the applicability of the video against truthers. Nothing to do with explosive. Please refrain yourself from running the standard response procedure on me, read, think, reread and rethink what is being posted before applying a copy paste response of your typical statements.

 

[Java Man]

using $6.92 PSF cost , works out to $11,975,475.20 for 40 floors total.

And what would you put in its place and how much would that cost?

 

[A W Smith]

So far I've assumed he is liable, but is he. Do you have any proof that he still has to pay for it?

http://www.wtc.com/about/silverstein-properties-as-wtc-leaseholder

The Port Authority continues to own the WTC, and managed it until 2001. It was then that the agency accepted leasing bids from several private real-estate firms, allowing the Port to raise funds for other projects and the city to collect taxes on the property.
The Port announced in February 2001 that Vornado Realty Trust won the lease by outbidding Silverstein Properties by $50 million. When Vornado later withdrew, Silverstein’s bid was accepted on July 24th, 2001. The $3.25 billion deal for the 99-year lease was the largest real estate transaction in New York City’s history.

http://www.ask.com/wiki/Silverstein_Properties

In July 2006, Silverstein and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey filed a lawsuit against some of its insurers for refusing to waive requirements of the insurance contracts that Silverstein claimed were necessary to allow renegotiation of the original July 2001 World Trade Center leases. This litigation, was settled together with the federal lawsuits and appraisal, mentioned in the prior paragraph, in a series of settlements announced on May 23, 2007.[24][25][26][27] Silverstein's lease with the Port Authority for the World Trade Center requires him to continue paying $102 million annually in base rent.[28] He is applying insurance payments toward the redevelopment of the World Trade Center site.[23]

 

[Java Man]

requires him to continue paying $102 million annually in base rent

So that's 2/3 of what I originally posted as the rent he had to pay. Did he get a price cut?

 

[A W Smith]

And what would you put in its place and how much would that cost?

that would depend on the product, The figures below provide a 2 hour fire rating.


Sprayed Mineral Fiber 13 lbs. 7/8"/2" 1.1 lbs. .22/$1.00
Sprayed Plaster 18 lbs. 1/2"/2-1/2" 1.3 lbs. .25/$1.00
Intumescents 70 lbs. 1-1/4" 6.0 lbs. $2.00/$3.00
Magnesium Oxychlorides 30 lbs. 1-1/4" 3.0 lbs. $2.00/$3.00
Concrete 150 lbs. 2" 25.0 lbs. $4.00/$8.00

 

[Dave Rogers]

Well neither do you. So how are you planning on challenging it?

By pointing out that it's pure speculation with no basis in fact, since you have no idea whether Silverstein made a profit or a loss due to 9/11.

Dave

 

[aggle-rithm]

My claim is that your statement that the insurance companies didn't complain was false. They did complain and refused to pay and were taken to court. You just supported that. The fact that they settled in different ways is irrelevant. If they hadn't complained and just paid up as you claim they did they wouldn't have been in court to settle in the first place.

Insurance companies ALWAYS complain. They ALWAYS do whatever they can to avoid paying a large settlement.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Although it is true that it wont cover the expense of building it the cost of building it doesn't add up to 10B if you're in the deal too. Secondly its still 3.4 B+. Thirdly the new building comes at the added value of having no asbestos. How much would it have cost to take that out from the WTC?

This is all irrelevant since there is no rational argument, much less evidence, tying the 9/11 attacks to insurance fraud.

 

[Java Man]

By pointing out that it's pure speculation with no basis in fact, since you have no idea whether Silverstein made a profit or a loss due to 9/11.

And how are you going to go about doing that? Are you Silverstein's accountant? Are you privy to some information we don't know that proves that he's lost money in the deal?

Just to set things straight. If he has just 2B of the 4.5B that is owed to him that's enough to pay the port authorities at a comfortable 5% annual interest rate. If he puts the money to work at say 10% a year he's making 200 million and paying only 105 million out to port authorities.

On top of that he can venture to build the new WTC have it operational in say 10 years and still have 80 years worth of lease to reap the benefits from it and on top of that the rent of the 4B+ he'll surely have collected by then.

Oh and did I mention that's assuming he's spending the other 95 million he's not paying the port authorities. If he reinvests the remainder of the rent on the 2B he's sure to have 3B+ by now (that's not counting the other half of the 4.5B that's owed to him). So 3B at 10% could be generating him 300 million by now and he only needs to pay 105 million. He'll have 200 million more by the end of this year which he can put back into the investments.

If the insurance company already paid him all the money he might even have 5B+ generating him 500 million a year and only 105 million to port authorities. On and on like that year after year is lots of money.

Lets do the math, starting with 2B, after 25 years we end up with the 10 Billion required to build the new WTC.

year capital rent remainder (rent-payment)
1 $2,000.00 $95.00
2 $2,095.00 $104.50
3 $2,199.50 $114.95
4 $2,314.45 $126.45
5 $2,440.90 $139.09
6 $2,579.98 $153.00
7 $2,732.98 $168.30
8 $2,901.28 $185.13
9 $3,086.41 $203.64
10 $3,290.05 $224.01
11 $3,514.06 $246.41
12 $3,760.46 $271.05
13 $4,031.51 $298.15
14 $4,329.66 $327.97
15 $4,657.62 $360.76
16 $5,018.39 $396.84
17 $5,415.22 $436.52
18 $5,851.75 $480.17
19 $6,331.92 $528.19
20 $6,860.11 $581.01
21 $7,441.12 $639.11
22 $8,080.24 $703.02
23 $8,783.26 $773.33
24 $9,556.59 $850.66
25 $10,407.25 $935.72

Starting at 4 billion, it only takes 13 years to come up with that sum:

year capital rent remainder (rent-payment)
1 $4,000.00 $295.00
2 $4,295.00 $324.50
3 $4,619.50 $356.95
4 $4,976.45 $392.65
5 $5,369.10 $431.91
6 $5,801.00 $475.10
7 $6,276.10 $522.61
8 $6,798.72 $574.87
9 $7,373.59 $632.36
10 $8,005.95 $695.59
11 $8,701.54 $765.15
12 $9,466.69 $841.67
13 $10,308.36 $925.84

Values expressed in millions of dollars

 

[Dave Rogers]

And how are you going to go about doing that? Are you Silverstein's accountant? Are you privy to some information we don't know that proves that he's lost money in the deal?

Sorry, are you really not getting this? You're claiming that Silverstein made money on the deal, therefore he must have defrauded the insurance companies. You're claiming this despite the fact that, as you've admitted, you have no idea whatsoever how much he lost. Therefore, your claim is unsupported by any information, and is worthless. I'm not the one making the claim here; you are, and you've made it clear you have no basis on which to make it.

Dave

 

[Dave Rogers]

Java Man: Put up or shut up time.

Java Man, if you think you've got a good case for insurance fraud against Silverstein Properties, here are some phone numbers.

Swiss Reinsurance
914 828 8000
TIG insurance
780 448 2298
Allianz Global Risks
312 224 3300
Zurich American Insurance
800-987-3373
Travelers
800.238.6225

These companies all paid out to Silverstein Properties, and they'll all be interested to see your evidence that they've been defrauded out of billions of dollars. Give them a call. Best case, you may get millions in reward. Worst case, you'll waste some time you'd only have spent wasting ours.

You've got three options now.
(1) Call them.
(2) Don't call them, and admit that you're just talking tough.
(3) Change the subject, pretend this post never happened, and hope we'll all forget that you're all mouth and no trousers.
(Hint: No, we won't.)

Your call (if you've got the guts to make it).

Dave

 

[Java Man]

Sorry, are you really not getting this? You're claiming that Silverstein made money on the deal, therefore he must have defrauded the insurance companies. You're claiming this despite the fact that, as you've admitted, you have no idea whatsoever how much he lost. Therefore, your claim is unsupported by any information, and is worthless. I'm not the one making the claim here; you are, and you've made it clear you have no basis on which to make it.

Dave

It's supported by a whole lot more data and numbers I've brought forth than you. I'm not aware of him declaring himself bankrupt, so I doubt he's in trouble. No maybe you have some information that shows how much "he lost". In the meantime my numbers and calculations stand. Please try to refute with something better than your empty valued statements.

 

[A W Smith]

one thing you overlooked, he already had to pay almost 10 years of his lease. He didn't get much of any settlement until recently. And then there are the hundreds of millions of legal costs just to get the insurance company to pay out.

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2007/05/23/79970.htm

 

[Dave Rogers]

In the meantime my numbers and calculations stand.

Then pick up the phone, and rake in the rewards. We're waiting.

Dave

 

[Java Man]

Java Man, if you think you've got a good case for insurance fraud against Silverstein Properties, here are some phone numbers.

Swiss Reinsurance
914 828 8000
TIG insurance
780 448 2298
Allianz Global Risks
312 224 3300
Zurich American Insurance
800-987-3373
Travelers
800.238.6225

These companies all paid out to Silverstein Properties, and they'll all be interested to see your evidence that they've been defrauded out of billions of dollars. Give them a call. Best case, you may get millions in reward. Worst case, you'll waste some time you'd only have spent wasting ours.

You've got three options now.
(1) Call them.
(2) Don't call them, and admit that you're just talking tough.
(3) Change the subject, pretend this post never happened, and hope we'll all forget that you're all mouth and no trousers.
(Hint: No, we won't.)

Your call (if you've got the guts to make it).

Dave

I'm sure they've read it in the newspaper by right now. Without an independent investigation I'm sure they won't be getting far. Will they?

 

[Java Man]

one thing you overlooked, he already had to pay almost 10 years of his lease. He didn't get much of any settlement until recently. And then there are the hundreds of millions of legal costs just to get the insurance company to pay out.

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2007/05/23/79970.htm

Are you not reading the numbers? He's in line to make 10 Billion US Dollars in 13 years. Silverstein is a billionare I'm sure he can pay 100 million a year if it get's him 10 Billion in the short run.

 

[A W Smith]

you have failed to show that Silverstein made a profit on the loss of the WTC, All your numbers are made up in your head from sheer speculation on what YOU might invest in had you received the payments absent of any responsibility to rebuild and reinvest.

Rebuilding


Post-9/11 7 World Trade Center


As leaseholder of buildings One, Two, Four and Five, Silverstein had the legal right to rebuild the buildings, including 1 World Trade Center at the World Trade Center site which would later be designated as building One, and while the site remains unoccupied, he continues to pay $10 million per month in rent to the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.
After the September 11 attacks, the United States Congress approved $8 billion in tax-exempt Liberty Bonds to fund development in the private sector at lower-than-market interest rates. $3.4 billion remained unallocated in March 2006 designated for Lower Manhattan, with about half of the funds under the control of Mayor Michael Bloomberg and the other half under the control of former Governor George Pataki.
In April 2006, after several months of negotiation aimed toward permitting reconstruction to commence, Silverstein yielded some of his rights back to the Port Authority, in order to facilitate rebuilding at the site. Those negotiations resulted in Silverstein ceding his rights to building One (and its pro-rata share of the above-noted Liberty Bond funds) to the Port Authority, and allocating a portion of the insurance proceeds to the rebuilding of building One in favor of the Port Authority. In return, the remaining pro-rata shares of the Liberty Bond funds were allocated to Silverstein Properties for purposes of rebuilding the remaining buildings, and government agencies are expected to be among the tenants in those buildings.
Ground was broken on the construction of 1 World Trade Center on April 27, 2006.[29] Lack of financing had prevented construction from commencing earlier. The proceeds of the insurance policies arising from the destruction of the previous buildings were insufficient to cover the cost of rebuilding all the insured buildings.
In March 2007 Silverstein appeared at a rally of construction workers and public officials outside of an insurance industry conference to highlight what he describes as the failures of insurers Allianz & Royal and Sun Alliance to pay $800 million in claims related to the attacks. Insurers cite an agreement to split payments between Mr. Silverstein and the Port Authority as a cause for concern.[30]

 

[Java Man]

Java Man, if you think you've got a good case for insurance fraud against Silverstein Properties, here are some phone numbers.....

Your call (if you've got the guts to make it).

Dave

BTW there is evidence on the web that shareholders have taken the time to notify this. Allianz example:


Countermotion (Shareholder Proposal) to the General Meeting of Allianz AG to be held May 4th, 2005

From Shareholder: John-Paul Leonard, P.O. Box 126, Joshua Tree, California 92252

Re: Agenda Item 3, Approval of the actions of the members of the Board of Management, I propose that approval not be granted.

Re: Agenda Item 4, Approval of the actions of the members of the Supervisory Board, I likewise propose that approval not be granted.

Reasoning:

The managing and supervisory boards have taken a passive attitude toward the insurance claims and the suspicious aspects of the WTC insurance loss.

The investigation of insurance losses and insurance damage claims against the Company is naturally one of the chief duties of the management of every insurance firm.

The WTC catastrophe was doubtless one of the biggest insurance incidents in history. A significant portion of the multi-billion dollar loss is expected to be borne by Allianz.

Numerous observers and researchers find the WTC case very suspicious....

You might want to mail John-Paul Leonard and see what the response was to his request.

 

[Java Man]

you have failed to show that Silverstein made a profit on the loss of the WTC, All your numbers are made up in your head from sheer speculation on what YOU might invest in had you received the payments absent of any responsibility to rebuild and reinvest.

Ok take the text you just showed us, get your numbers and propose a counter model. Don't just rant. Do the math and show it to us.

 

[A W Smith]

BTW there is evidence on the web that shareholders have taken the time to notify this. Allianz example:


Countermotion (Shareholder Proposal) to the General Meeting of Allianz AG to be held May 4th, 2005

From Shareholder: John-Paul Leonard, P.O. Box 126, Joshua Tree, California 92252

Re: Agenda Item 3, Approval of the actions of the members of the Board of Management, I propose that approval not be granted.

Re: Agenda Item 4, Approval of the actions of the members of the Supervisory Board, I likewise propose that approval not be granted.

Reasoning:

The managing and supervisory boards have taken a passive attitude toward the insurance claims and the suspicious aspects of the WTC insurance loss.

The investigation of insurance losses and insurance damage claims against the Company is naturally one of the chief duties of the management of every insurance firm.

The WTC catastrophe was doubtless one of the biggest insurance incidents in history. A significant portion of the multi-billion dollar loss is expected to be borne by Allianz.

Numerous observers and researchers find the WTC case very suspicious....

You might want to mail John-Paul Leonard and see what the response was to his request.

after they read this they probably UPS'd him a package of laughing dogs, he's a twoofer just like you java man


http://progressivepress.com/author/john-paul-leonard

John-Paul Leonard

Progressive Press publisher JP Leonard did his BA in Political Science at UCLA and a Masters in Finance at UC Berkeley. After a business career that took him for 18 years to Europe, East and West, he returned to the USA and took over the family business, Tree of Life Publications. It was between two moments which reawakened him to politics: Al-Aqsa Intifada and 9/11. During that period he was a frequent contributor to Media Monitors Network , leading to the publication of The War on Freedom (2002). A sample of his writing is the update to his epilogue to this work, but since then he has been too busy with other authors' works to publish his own. Two-hour interview, Leonard with Jim Fetzer, Dec. 2009.