NLP (Neuro-linguistic programming)

[Kuko 4000]

That's what makes it doubly frustrating debunking NLP claims when Brown is offered as the evidence.

I think a good first step would be to just quote choice parts of the NLP section from Derren's book 'Tricks of the Mind', where he pretty much trashes the system as a whole. Sorry if this has already been mentioned.

 

[Garrette]

I think a good first step would be to just quote choice parts of the NLP section from Derren's book 'Tricks of the Mind', where he pretty much trashes the system as a whole. Sorry if this has already been mentioned.

I may do that if I feel up to it later, but I think it is better as a second step than a first.

First step is get the claimant to recognize that they are mistaken in a basic premise about what Derren Brown claims to be doing.

 

[JM85]

Brown doesn't explicitly say he uses NLP, but the explanations he gives at the end of some of the tricks he does seem like explanations of NLP techniques. Like i said, it's probably a front for whatever Brown is actually doing. I may be mistaken, and Brown isn't doing slight of hand tricks, or NLP, but another mentalism trick, and I'm open to this possibility, but I don't expect anybody to go into details about that, since explaining magic tricks isn't allowed on this forum.

And the only language patterns I can think of that are similar to NLP, but predate it can be found with ericksonian hypnosis.

 

[Sledge]

What other possibility is there? NLP doesn't work, there's no such thing as magic or psychic powers, that leaves us with "he's doing a trick."

I do not for the life of me understand why people have so much trouble grasping this.

 

[Garrette]

Brown doesn't explicitly say he uses NLP, but the explanations he gives at the end of some of the tricks he does seem like explanations of NLP techniques. Like i said, it's probably a front for whatever Brown is actually doing. I may be mistaken, and Brown isn't doing slight of hand tricks, or NLP, but another mentalism trick, and I'm open to this possibility, but I don't expect anybody to go into details about that, since explaining magic tricks isn't allowed on this forum.

And the only language patterns I can think of that are similar to NLP, but predate it can be found with ericksonian hypnosis.

Don't limit yourself to just one. Since you're going for the distinction, stick with mainly mentalism but don't rule out sleight of hand for a few effects (not the ones you linked to, though).

What other possibility is there? NLP doesn't work, there's no such thing as magic or psychic powers, that leaves us with "he's doing a trick."

I do not for the life of me understand why people have so much trouble grasping this.

Yup.

 

[tsig]

What other possibility is there? NLP doesn't work, there's no such thing as magic or psychic powers, that leaves us with "he's doing a trick."

I do not for the life of me understand why people have so much trouble grasping this.

For some alcohol and hard drugs just aren't enough.

 

[Garrette]

I hope this isn't too much quoting for "Fair Use" from a 390 page book.

These are all excerpts from Derren Brown's Tricks of the Mind, 2nd edition, referring to NLP. You'll note that Brown had experience with Ericksonian hypnosis before NLP:

p. 130

There is a dilemma here which typifies much post-Erickson hypnosis and its Frankenstein grandchild, neuro-linguistic programming, or NLP. The 'permissive' approach encourages the telling of anecdotes to the client which, though they may be fictitious, indirectly suggest a therapeutic change. Certainly this would seem to be a common-sense tool where one might wish a person to see a difficult situation in a more helpful light. However, the methods which the techniques of Ericksonian hypnotherapy and NLP are actually taught to student practicioners tend to reflect the methods employed in the therapy itself. For example, one such method for teaching which is widely used is that of exactly this sort of anecdote-telling, and much of the evidence of the efficacy of Ericksonian hypnotic techniques (and NLP) comes from these anecdotes rather than from any actual testing or documented case histories.

pp. 174-175

Anybody with a third of an interest in hypnosis will be hard pushed not to have heard of NLP. When I began reading about and practising hypnosis as a student I became quite enthused about NLP, mainly due to the narrative style and astonishing content of the books written by or about its founders, Richard Bandler and John Grinder. They are quite addictive reading, especially to one without scepticism, and I started to incorporate NLP into my hypnosis shows and any low-level therapeutic help I might offer someone, such as giving up smoking.

After about six years of familiarity with the techniques and attitude of NLP, and in a moment of unpleasant madness, I thought I might become a hypnotherapist full-time, and it seemed proper that I obtain some relevant qualifications. To do so, I attended an NLP course, given by Bandler and others, and achieved the relevant 'Practitioner' qualification. The course, perversely, put me off that career rather than cementing my ambition. I now have a lot of NLPers analysing my TV work in their own terms, as well as people who say that I myself unfairly claim to be using NLP whenever I perform (the truth is I have never mentioned it). To confuse things even further, it has recently made a home for itself as a fashionable conjuring technique of dubious efficacy.

p.177

The pragmatic approach of the originators has now been swamped in a huge industry of daft theories and hyperbole, evangelical mind-sets and endless self-perpetuating courses, to the point where it resembles something of a pyramid scheme, with Bandler sat cheerily at the top. (Grinder, it seems, has a more careful view of what constitutes good NLP and is a little cynical of what it has become.)

p.177

It's not hard to take people from a group of suggestible, enthusiastic believers and have them experience what appears to be powerful change in front of the audience. That comes down to understanding charisma and performance.

p.179

Can I not choose to learn from other people in this way without calling it NLP? Don't we model ourselves on people or emulate mentors all the time? of course, the answer is 'yes'. Because NLP has its roots not only in Bandler and Grinder's work but also in aspects of Freud, Jung and Chomsky, as well as all the therapists the originators were inspired by, and because it aims to take as its starting point what already works, there is little in its roots that is unique. One of the many irritating habits of NLPers is to claim anything remotely concerned with looking consciously at one's inner processes as NLP.

p. 358

There was a real irony to the NLPers I knew who prided themselves on their communication skills yet because of their need to let everyone know how engaging they were, they were among the least engaging people I have ever known.

There's more, including talks about some specific claims of NLP (particularly that of eye movement when telling the truth or a lie), and it isn't 100% negative, but the positive is very clearly couched in terms making it clear that it isn't NLP itself that is positive; rather, it is that NLP has co-opted some simple ideas already known to work and couched them differently (my wording, not Brown's).

 

[JM85]

I don't have any trouble grasping Brown doing a trick, and not using NLP for the actual trick. I have trouble grasping what trick he's doing, and if he's using NLP explanations as a cover up. I mean, if it's not a cover up, then is there actually a way to influence somebody to the extent he does with people using mentalist tricks?

I appreciate you posting the excerpts from Tricks of the Mind, Garrette. It's interesting that Brown mentions using NLP on people to help them quit smoking. He never mention that it didn't work.

 

[Garrette]

I don't have any trouble grasping Brown doing a trick, and not using NLP for the actual trick. I have trouble grasping what trick he's doing,

I don't understand this. The trick is the effect it has on the audience. The audience comprises those who watched the show (or now the video).

and if he's using NLP explanations as a cover up.

I really want to help you, but you are being obtuse. After this post I will not respond directly to you unless you admit what has been repeatedly demosntrated:

Derren Brown does not claim to use NLP, ergo, Derren Brown does not use NLP as a "cover up."

You are stuck on the idea that Brown is claiming NLP. He is not. If you can't get that simple fact straight there is no point discussing anything else with you.

Beyond that, what the heck do you mean by "cover up?"

I mean, if it's not a cover up, then is there actually a way to influence somebody to the extent he does with people using mentalist tricks?

You are asking the wrong question.

When you see a magician saw a woman in half and then put her back together, do you ask "Is there actually a way to saw a woman in half and then put her back together?"

If you do, then there is a problem.

The real question for the magician is this: "How is it possible to give the impression of sawing a woman in half and then putting her back together?"

I'll let you take the step of modifying that question so it applies to Brown.

I appreciate you posting the excerpts from Tricks of the Mind, Garrette. It's interesting that Brown mentions using NLP on people to help them quit smoking.

Yes, it is. I told you his comments were not 100% negative, but if what you are taking away from the excerpts is that the comments are largely positive then you need to take a step back and re-read them. Start with the second excerpt from page 177.

He never mention that it didn't work.

Sigh...


And to end, I will reiterate my requirement before I respond to you again: Admit directly that Brown does not claim to use NLP.

 

[JM85]

I already admitted that Brown doesn't claim to use NLP. If I implied that I thought he did it was an error. What I meant was it seems like he's giving explanations of NLP techniques at the end of some of his magic tricks. What I meant by cover up was he used NLP for misdirection. I'm saying the same thing others have already said. I admit, before I made this topic I didn't know if Brown was using NLP or not, and I wasn't trying to prove that he was.

He didn't mention if the NLP didn't have some sort of placebo effect with the people he used it on to quit smoking. I'm not trying to annoy anybody here, but it's entirely possible that it worked for that reason.

 

[Garrette]

I already admitted that Brown doesn't claim to use NLP. If I implied that I thought he did it was an error. What I meant was it seems like he's giving explanations of NLP techniques at the end of some of his magic tricks. What I meant by cover up was he used NLP for misdirection. I'm saying the same thing others have already said. I admit, before I made this topic I didn't know if Brown was using NLP or not, and I wasn't trying to prove that he was.

He didn't mention if the NLP didn't have some sort of placebo effect with the people he used it on to quit smoking. I'm not trying to annoy anybody here, but it's entirely possible that it worked for that reason.

Ah. My apologies for misunderstanding, then. I have no problem with this post except that I would say he is allowing observers to consider NLP, so it becomes a misdirection but not one he supplied.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

Ah. My apologies for misunderstanding, then. I have no problem with this post except that I would say he is allowing observers to consider NLP, so it becomes a misdirection but not one he supplied.

Umm... What do you expect the guy to do?
Someone posts a clip on youtube saying that's what he does.
How can Derren Brown have any effect on it?

As I said, I have a friend who is totally into the NLP mumbo jumbo and he keeps giving Brown as an example even though I already showed the wiki entry about it. He was pissed about that, but claims the guy is making an act when he says it's bunk

So what else is Brown to do?

 

[Pup]

While Brown doesn't have any control over what his fans say, it's clear that Brown shapes his tricks so they look like they could be done by NLP (for some value of "could"). So I don't think it's completely random or imaginary that there's an NLP connection, even if he disavows it himself.

It's not like he does a set-up about a psychic guide or that he's an alien in a human body or has a demon that can force people to do his bidding, or follows any typical classic route of a magician like using a magic wand or puffs of smoke, or even presents things as straightforward sleight of hand like someone doing card tricks.

His tricks clearly aim fans toward imagining an NLP explanation over all other possible explanations (aside from the more obvious one that they're tricks of course), even if he disavows NLP himself.

 

[Garrette]

Umm... What do you expect the guy to do?
Someone posts a clip on youtube saying that's what he does.
How can Derren Brown have any effect on it?

As I said, I have a friend who is totally into the NLP mumbo jumbo and he keeps giving Brown as an example even though I already showed the wiki entry about it. He was pissed about that, but claims the guy is making an act when he says it's bunk

So what else is Brown to do?

Nothing. I've never suggested Brown needs to do more. I think his disclaimers are sufficient.