NLP (Neuro-linguistic programming)

[zooterkin]

Bastards. You've made me order Brown's book.

Well, that just proves NLP works...

 

[Garrette]

Bastards. You've made me order Brown's book.

You will find it worth the money but don't expect tons of methodological exposure. There's some in there, but that isn't the purpose of this book.

 

[JM85]

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'use NLP'. I would not be at all surprised to learn that Derren Brown includes NLP techniques as part of the act, but only as set dressing or misdirection, not as the actual means by which he performs the trick.

that's what i meant when i said language, but you articulated it better. this makes a lot of sense. he could be using nlp as a cover up for what he's actually doing.

as far as hostility goes maybe that's the wrong word, but it seems like whenever somebody asks a question, or expresses an opinion that's contrary to what the majority of posters here believe some of you get sarcastic, and rude. i don't mind it, but i think it's because of the implications of these things being real. if nlp were real, then could we all just be programmed? if God were real, then what are the implications of this? maybe you would have an existential crises if your materialistic view was wrong.

or maybe people like senex are just having fun.

 

[roger]

as far as hostility goes maybe that's the wrong word, but it seems like whenever somebody asks a question, or expresses an opinion that's contrary to what the majority of posters here believe some of you get sarcastic, and rude. i don't mind it, but i think it's because of the implications of these things being real. if nlp were real, then could we all just be programmed? if God were real, then what are the implications of this? maybe you would have an existential crises if your materialistic view was challenged..

Okay, once again, just like with the magic acts, you are going with the more difficult explanation rather than the easy one.

The issue is that people like Uri Geller, Sylvia Browne, etc., use these well known illusions for personal gain. People get swindled out of a lot of money. You know about the Nigerian 411 scams (emails stating that somebody needs help transferring $40 million out of a country, they will give you 20% for your help, and all they need is your bank account information and they will transfer it right to you). You'd have the possibility of getting testy if someone on here was arguing that it's a genuine offer and that another poster should really give that email contact their bank routing number. Maybe you wouldn't, I don't know your personality, but surely you could see how somebody might react that way, yes?

We can explain how the 411 scam works (they take your bank account info, and transfer all your funds to their account), but we can't explain how Brown does his trick because Randi is a magician and won't allow us to reveal secrets here. We are not afraid or whatever that maybe what Penn&Teller or Blaine does is "real", we are just annoyed that someone is seriously arguing that it could be real when there are magicians in the thread saying they know exactly how the effect is done, and it is not supernatural, NLP, or whatever. Heck, you've been given the names of the people that sell the books and DVDs that explain exactly how it is done.

 

[mindcore]

If Darren Brown doesn't use NLP, then how do you explain this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=befugtgikMg I think the legitimate part of NLP is about language effecting feeling's. Albert Ellis also writes about this in his books on REBT, but I don't even know if this is true. I mean, I feel more than think, so for some people it might be true. Could it be that some people's mid brain is more dominant than their neo cortex?

Thanks for posting your comment, I feel it is very even handed. I can't speak much about NLP but I can respond to your statement about dominance of the mid brain (limbic system) vs. neo cortex.

This is a false dichotomy. For one all perception information (feel, taste, sight, smell, passes through the limbic system first. We have a response through the limbic system, and the thalamus, before cortex gets a chance at its slow (by comparison) analysis.

We want to think that the neocortex is dominant because it is the seat of higher cognitive function, but it is also phylogenetically more recent and usually the last part of the brain to act on information.

It seems to me emotions start before real logical and linguistic thoughts kick in.

 

[tsig]

Not just that. Apperantly it doesn't take the resources of the supreme leader to do it. Anyone can with just a few days\weeks certification (depending on the institute).

You would think we would see things like law firms stating "NLP grads wanted"
or at least "NLP grad a plus"

You would think Bush would bother using NLP to interogate terrorists instead of torturing them, not only would it be more effective, it would be far less of a politcal emberassment.

You would think that every single law enforcement agency would study it to interogate criminals. And every single mob organization on earth would study it to learn how to fake through it.

The possiblities are endless and the cost is practically non existant.

Oddly enough, as I said before, over 40 years and nobody gives a hoot about this silly thing.

What would happen when a NLP grad went against another NLP grad? Energy beams from the eyes, fire from the fingers?

 

[Sledge]

What would happen when a NLP grad went against another NLP grad? Energy beams from the eyes, fire from the fingers?

So glad I bothered to find this image and upload it to my Photobucket account:

 

[Senex]

that's what i meant when i said language, but you articulated it better. this makes a lot of sense. he could be using nlp as a cover up for what he's actually doing.

Your OP insinuated more to NLP than just a cover for a magic trick but if your mind was swayed by what you read here why not admit it?

as far as hostility goes maybe that's the wrong word, but it seems like whenever somebody asks a question, or expresses an opinion that's contrary to what the majority of posters here believe some of you get sarcastic, and rude.

That's a hostile thing for you to say. It disappoints me how simple thinking newbies see the forum. I could care less what the majority of posters here believe and I don't need to be on the side of the majority to be sarcastic (I'm, frankly, never rude -- antagonistic isn't necessarily rude). Nothing pleases me more than posting something I believe to be true that the fine folks on this site might disagree with. I like to be the center of (even negative) attention if I'm arguing something I believe to be true.

i don't mind it, but i think it's because of the implications of these things being real. if nlp were real, then could we all just be programmed?

Your implications are not logical implications. Did your creator use NLP

if God were real, then what are the implications of this? maybe you would have an existential crises if your materialistic view was wrong.

One implication is "were" is a plural verb and you are polytheistic. I never considered I had a "materialistic" view but I'll take that over a NLP view.

or maybe people like senex are just having fun.

It's not an either/or and I have fun. BTW - if you can find the shift key to put a capital G in god than you can can find the shift key and put a capital S in Senex. Senex is spelled with a capital S

 

[Pup]

On the second video, the one where he convinced the woman that yellow was red, I didn't get it. He convinced her the yellow card was red, but then she spontaneously said the red card was black? Where did that come from?

I can understand the supposed premise of convincing someone that yellow is red, but why would that make someone think red is black? Did the video skip something or did I miss a line?

I agree with what others have said, the frustration isn't because people are afraid these things might be true; the frustration is because it's obvious these things aren't true. Otherwise, every salesman, swindler and politician would use it, the army would use it for training recruits, nobody would need to use waterboarding when you could just convince people the interrogator was their friend, you could control criminals and criminals could control victims; it would show up in court cases just like drugs, alcohol and other temporary impairment (imagine convincing someone that red lights were green and then sending them out on the road), and psychiatrists could just program people to stop smoking and quit being depressed.

Since none of those things happen, and we only see this being done by a few performers for entertainment, there's obviously another explanation. Things which do mimic it somewhat (Stockholm syndrome, cult indoctrination, the Milgram experiment) are well studied and one can see the specific limitations and requirements, so it's not like nobody has studied how much people can be controlled.

 

[Senex]

I agree with what others have said, the frustration isn't because people are afraid these things might be true; the frustration is because it's obvious these things aren't true. Otherwise, every salesman, swindler and politician would use it, the army would use it for training recruits, nobody would need to use waterboarding when you could just convince people the interrogator was their friend, you could control criminals and criminals could control victims; it would show up in court cases just like drugs, alcohol and other temporary impairment (imagine convincing someone that red lights were green and then sending them out on the road), and psychiatrists could just program people to stop smoking and quit being depressed.

This is brilliant. The NLP defense. An expert NLP person manipulated me to commit the crime. I was a helpless pawn in their brilliant psychological evil undertaking. How could I have defended myself against such nefarious attacks such as embedded commands?

 

[JM85]

sorry for the bad grammar, professor, but you're just going to have to deal with it. my point in making this topic wasn't to prove that NLP was real, and the replies in this topic did make me think about Brown using NLP as a cover up for slight of hand tricks. originally i thought he was doing a mentalism trick, and using nlp to cover that up. as far as your attitude goes i think you're right; by your own admission you like being the center of attention, and that's what it boils down to. i'm not a newbie by the way; i joined in 2006.

 

[Garrette]

sorry for the bad grammar, professor, but you're just going to have to deal with it. my point in making this topic wasn't to prove that NLP was real, and the replies in this topic did make me think about Brown using NLP as a cover up for slight of hand tricks. originally i thought he was doing a mentalism trick, and using nlp to cover that up. as far as your attitude goes i think you're right; by your own admission you like being the center of attention, and that's what it boils down to. i'm not a newbie by the way; i joined in 2006.

Highlighting is mine.

AAAAAGGGGGHHHHHH!!!

Have you read nothing I've said? Regardless if it's magic tricks or mentalism effects (they're really not that distinguishable, imo, but if you're going to label them then Brown is doing mentalism), HE DOES NOT USE NLP AS A COVER!

Sorry for the caps, but you seem to have missed this every time I have said it so far.

Brown does not claim to use NLP.

Brown does not claim to use NLP.

Brown does not claim to use NLP.

Get it? It is the people who watch him and who don't want to think that they can be fooled and who think they know something special who claim it is NLP.

I challenge you to find me a video in which Brown ever says he's using NLP.

 

[JM85]

i'm saying i agree with what zooterkin is saying, that Brown uses NLP for misdirection. this is really fascinating. Brown explains his tricks at the end of some of his videos, but those explanations aren't what he actually did. it's like how magicians claim to have supernatural powers, but they don't; this is what he's doing with NLP.

other people have said the same thing in this topic, Garrette. i'm not saying he uses NLP to influence people; the actual NLP tricks aren't working. if you look at the video of the woman who choose the wrong car he's using the swish pattern; it's obvious. but the swish pattern isn't actually doing anything.

 

[Garrette]

i'm saying i agree with what zooterkin is saying, that Brown uses NLP for misdirection. this is really fascinating. Brown explains his tricks at the end of some of his videos, but those explanations aren't what he actually did. it's like how magicians claim to have supernatural powers, but they don't; this is what he's doing with NLP.

other people have said the same thing in this topic, Garrette. i'm not saying he uses NLP to influence people; the actual NLP tricks aren't working. if you look at the video of the woman who choose the wrong car he's using the swish pattern; it's obvious. but the swish pattern isn't actually doing anything.

You're still missing the point.

Derren Brown does not actually use NLP. We agree on that, so no problem.

But Derren Brown also does not claim to use NLP, even in his performances. He does not use NLP as misdirection. That's what you're missing. I grant that he won't tell people who assume he uses NLP that they are wrong, but that's a different thing.

 

[Senex]

. if you look at the video of the woman who choose the wrong car he's using the swish pattern; it's obvious. but the swish pattern isn't actually doing anything.

Here is a link to a previous thread about this topic. If you aren't too lazy to read to page two I explain the video you mentioned (only because it is video editing exposing and not magic exposing).

You remind me of the poster on that thread called Iknoweverything.

 

[roger]

You're still missing the point.

Derren Brown does not actually use NLP. We agree on that, so no problem.

But Derren Brown also does not claim to use NLP, even in his performances. He does not use NLP as misdirection. That's what you're missing. I grant that he won't tell people who assume he uses NLP that they are wrong, but that's a different thing.

Well, I wonder about that linked video where the camera keeps zooming in on him every time he touches the person. The implication (or at least I imply it) is that they are trying to say the touching has something to do with the final result. That might not be strictly NLP (I don't know the whole range of what NLP claims as its processes), but if not NLP, than something similar. Anyway, that is what I take from his various videos - the video editting is trying to make it seem that Brown is influencing the person through touches when certain phrases are being said. We of course both agree that he is actually achieving the effects via a mentalism routine.

I haven't read his book where he talks about all of this - how does he explain the intent of the misdirection employed in the video editing if it is not to make us think of some kind of NLP-like techniques?

 

[Garrette]

Well, I wonder about that linked video where the camera keeps zooming in on him every time he touches the person. The implication (or at least I imply it) is that they are trying to say the touching has something to do with the final result. That might not be strictly NLP (I don't know the whole range of what NLP claims as its processes), but if not NLP, than something similar. Anyway, that is what I take from his various videos - the video editting is trying to make it seem that Brown is influencing the person through touches when certain phrases are being said. We of course both agree that he is actually achieving the effects via a mentalism routine.

I haven't read his book where he talks about all of this - how does he explain the intent of the misdirection employed in the video editing if it is not to make us think of some kind of NLP-like techniques?

I don't have anything to hand, but his disclaimer is along the lines of using "skills, psychology, and misdirection to achieve the appearance of these powers."

The quotations are not meant to imply that the words are his, though I'm fairly certain that he does use the word "psychology." In that sense, he is being entirely truthful.

But the point remains: Derren Brown does not and never has said, even when in performance mode, that he uses NLP in any form to achieve his effects. It is his believing followers who attach that label to him.

That's what makes it doubly frustrating debunking NLP claims when Brown is offered as the evidence.

 

[Dancing David]

Not really. They just took woo and woo-ed it up. I see little overlap with any behavioral therapy.

Cool, no nugget at all, just a woo is woo's clothing?

 

[zooterkin]

You're still missing the point.

Derren Brown does not actually use NLP. We agree on that, so no problem.

But Derren Brown also does not claim to use NLP, even in his performances.

Agreed.

He does not use NLP as misdirection. That's what you're missing. I grant that he won't tell people who assume he uses NLP that they are wrong, but that's a different thing.

And if he uses techniques which are also part of NLP, without referring to them, such as touching people, and certain verbal patterns (to be clear, uses them as part of the business of the act, not the means of performing it)? We know that Derren Brown is aware of them, since he studied NLP; what reason would he not use such things (almost certainly tongue-in-cheek)?

 

[Garrette]

Agreed.


And if he uses techniques which are also part of NLP, without referring to them, such as touching people, and certain verbal patterns (to be clear, uses them as part of the business of the act, not the means of performing it)? We know that Derren Brown is aware of them, since he studied NLP; what reason would he not use such things (almost certainly tongue-in-cheek)?

You (and Roger before you) may have a point, but it is only a speculative point and even more so since such things are not unique to NLP and, I daresay, predate NLP, at least in some form.