Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[babycondor]

Reasonable Doubt

Honestly I've gone back and forth on her innocence since this thread started.

Ultimately I think it's unknowable for sure but I'd put my money on innocence right now.

I still haven't heard a good theory that ties together the three of them in a way that makes sense to me.

That's what it all boils down to for me: reasonable doubt. "If the glove don't fit"....etc.

People who are apparently unwilling to entertain the notion of reasonable doubt because they are emotionally invested in their belief that Amanda and Raffaele are guilty are a fascinating aspect of this case, to me.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Is Hellmann accommodating a request by Raffaele's defense to hold trial when Bongiorno would be back from leave? Mid-March would be in that time frame.

I don't know that to be so, however, didn't Raffaele's defense make a previous request to slow down the pace of trial while Bongiorno was pregnant? Hellmann did delay the start of the trial, so it is possible this delay has also to do with Bongiorno.

I remember Pratillo Hellman made a remark about starting the trial in a peaceful manner or something, but he stated something in the sense that it's an exception and the court will proceed regardless of Bongiorno's situation.

I can't find a single sentence in the news as to the reasons for the delay. No reports about any defence requests this time.

 

[komponisto]

Is it just me and alt left

No, there are a few more who missed the most recent drama.

 

[Danceme]

Wow, I'm still here

I was thinking about the glacial pace of the trials. I vaguely remember we were being told that court could only sit on Saturdays to accommodate Bongiorno's schedule. It was also supposedly a reason for the slow pace of the first trial. But didn't Bongiorno gave birth recently? By my understanding she's out of picture now, yet the trial slowed down even more, with next hearing scheduled for the middle of March.
I guess such tempo would be normal for some post-soviet republic but for a western democracy it's quite outrageous.

I'm here too!

I agree Katody, the pace is ridiculous. Are all trials in Italy like this I wonder?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I'm here too!

I agree Katody, the pace is ridiculous. Are all trials in Italy like this I wonder?

And they wonder why they have such a large back log - Guess I made the cut as well.

 

[Danceme]

I've always been a little curious how Guede's fingerprint could have been retrieved from the pillowcase with enough detail to match one stored in a database. Today I googled fingerprints on fabric and it seems there have been very recent breakthroughs in this technique, interesting.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110131073141.htm

 

[Juror]

That's what it all boils down to for me: reasonable doubt. "If the glove don't fit"....etc.

People who are apparently unwilling to entertain the notion of reasonable doubt because they are emotionally invested in their belief that Amanda and Raffaele are guilty are a fascinating aspect of this case, to me.

I find that aspect of the case fascinating too and enjoy following this thread for that reason. It ironically makes the the pro-AK view that the authorities had convinced themselves she was guilty early on and charged ahead despite the evidence seem even more plausible.

 

[Dan O.]

I've always been a little curious how Guede's fingerprint could have been retrieved from the pillowcase with enough detail to match one stored in a database. Today I googled fingerprints on fabric and it seems there have been very recent breakthroughs in this technique, interesting.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110131073141.htm

In this case, they didn't need to go to such extremes. If the weave on the material is 2x finer that the ridge detail of the finger print, it will hold a suitably inked image. The VMD process is only necessary when trying to see the natural oils from the fingers.

 

[Danceme]

Has there ever been a picture posted of the actual handprint? Only asking out of curiosity.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Apparently single killer doesn't satisfy the public, too. In Sarah Scazzi case we have both Michele and his daughter involved, in MoF case we have a team of 3 guys (not counting the vast satanic conspiracy). It's interesting that when the police manages to get false confessions they're not satisfied with single perpetrator and often get groups of three or more. The West Memphis Three, The Norfolk Four, 3 Picnic Friends in MoF case. In this case they were close to getting 3 completely innocent people convicted, if not for the unwelcome evidence against Guede that emerged.

That's an interesting insight. It might well turn out that multiple suspects are a symptom of an investigation based on on inducing false confessions.

Back over to something Treehorn posted before the banhammer descended:

1) Here's an example near your neck o' the woods, Kevin (note: 1 of the 4 'pranksters' was a 17 year old female):

http://news.smh.com.au/national/four-escape-jail-over-dildo-rape-prank-20071129-1dp0.html

Four escape jail over dildo rape prank

By Todd Cardy
November 29, 2007

A group of four who raped a drunken male friend with a dildo while he slept and videotaped the attack have escaped a jail term.

The South Australian District Court heard on Thursday Brendan Phillip Hollands, Sian Catherine Whistler, David Kingsley McMahon and a 17-year-old girl had been drinking heavily on December 10, 2005, at Hollands' Aberfoyle Park house, in Adelaide's south...

The issue here is whether "rape prank" or "hazing" is an explanation with any actual explanatory power. Are you any the wiser after this explanation has been proposed than before?

If an Indian farmer says "A big stripey thing just carried off my pig, what on Earth could that have been?" then attributing the event to a tiger has significant explanatory power. Tigers are a real thing that actually exists, we know a lot about them and they might well attack a pig. We are wiser once we examine this possibility.

Does anything analogous happen when we say "A young woman was sexually assaulted and murdered, what on Earth could have happened?", and a guilter says "Behold, it was a rape prank"? I doesn't look to me that it does. Rape pranks in the sense needed to explain this aren't a real thing that actually exists.

As far as anyone seems able to establish, three people (one of them a near total stranger to the other two) rocking up to a friends house (who for all they know might not even be there at the time), all three armed with real knives, with the intent of scaring the heck out of the victim with a mock threatened rape doesn't actually happen. Ever. Anywhere. In that sense "rape prank" is a term that does not point to any actual thing.

If the closest anyone can find to a "rape prank" is four friends sticking a dildo in the anus of an unconscious friend that's just shows that "rape pranks" in the sense needed by the guilters don't exist.

2) Here's another example from Italian TV, no less (based on what we know about their ages, interests and maturity levels, it's not hard to imagine RS and/or AK finding it to their liking):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y-bntffHIY

Granted, there are 'relevant differences' with respect to these (easy to find) examples, but you cannot reasonably deny the 'relevant similarities'.

I think the fact that it was a staged event for TV as opposed to a real thing that actually happened is an overwhelmingly important difference. Note also the lack of multiple participants (one a stranger to the others), live blades, or rape.

Note that this is not an argument that it is impossible that Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy all ganged up to pull a "rape prank". (Although reconciling the idea with Meredith's time of death, the computer evidence and the total lack of evidence of any familiarity or communication between Amanda/Raffaele and Rudy with such a story may indeed be close enough to impossible that the distinction is slight).

It's merely an argument that shows that saying "It was a rape prank" gives no greater credibility to the associated hypothesis than saying "It was a completely unprecedented crime that never happened before and never will again". "Rape pranks" in the relevant sense don't exist.

The appeal of the "rape prank gone wrong" meme is that it puts a superficially plausible label on a completely implausible theory. "Rape pranks" sound like the sort of thing that could exist. If you just go with the herd and assume that because all your fellow guilters are talking about rape pranks as if they exist, that therefore rape pranks exist, then you can logically conclude that it's possible that the three accused and three knives got into the room for the purposes of a "rape prank" and then it "went wrong". It makes a senseless theory appear sensible, if you don't look too closely at the assumption that "rape pranks" are a real thing that actually exists.

Of course once you stop taking the word of guilters that a Google search turns up lots of evidence of "rape pranks", and check for yourself, you see that rape pranks in the relevant sense don't exist and hence this explanation is no explanation at all.

 

[RWVBWL]

Rudy Guede's mug shot taken by Polizia Scientifica Perugia

Was Rudy Guede ever convicted of a crime
or was he just arrested, photographed and released to then have a nice day, so to say?
Thanks for any help on this matter,
RWVBWL
Peace everyone...

Guede's fingerprints apparently were on file because he is a resident alien, not in connection with a police matter. As far as I know, he had no criminal convictions, but there is good reason to think he committed a number of crimes for which he was never charged. It's not easy to get to the bottom of the story. It is somewhat like the situation with the hard drives: we have enough information to know that bad decisions were made, but we don't know the details, and the people who do know aren't talking.

1) Why did Rudy Guede have his mug shot taken by the Polizia Scientifica Perugia before her murder?
Was he arrested and/or jailed for something that I am unaware of? Is this somehow related to the rumor that Rudy Guede possibly became a police informer?

2) In the 2nd mug shot, taken by the Questura di Milano,
I assume this was when he was found in the nursery/kindergarten school and was in possesion of stolen property.Correct?

Was Rudy Guede ever convicted of a crime
or was he just arrested, photographed and released to then have a nice day, so to say?
Thanks for any help on this matter,
RWVBWL
Peace everyone...

Rudy Guede was never convicted of anything, however if I recall correctly he was arrested once which must be where that mug shot came from. I'm not sure which of his 'incidents' would have resulted in that.

Hello everyone,
I had wondered why Rudy Guede had his photograph taken by the Polizia Scientifica Perugia and I recieved a couple of replies, none of which have satisfied my curiousity, especially since I recall the discussion of Amanda Knox getting a ticket for having a party, which did not entail her mug shot to be taken.

Does anyone have any information why Rudy Guede had his mug shot taken by the Polizia Scientifica Perugia before Meredith Kercher was brutally killed?
Thanks for any replies, RWVBWL

PS-Here is the link to Rudy Guede's mug shots:
http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/archives/179047.asp
In it you will see 2 sets of photo's of Rudy Guede, taken before the murder of Miss Meredith Kercher.

PSS-I ask this question once again, for with the recent news that the police had a heroin drug dealing investigation hanging over Antonio Curatolo's head for many years, well I wonder if the police had something also on Rudy Guede. Why was his mug shot taken by the Polizia Scientifica Perugia before Miss Kercher's murder. What had Rudy Guede done that merited him getting his mug shot photograph taken?

 

[Fine]

The War Against Women

Thanks for the update. Charlie was right about the mindset here. Sabrina is innocent.

__________________________--

Just who's mindset, Rose? The public? The cops? The courts? Apparently, the Italian public disagrees with you. 90% of those responding to this poll think she did it, either she alone killed Sarah, she and her uncle (Michele) killed Sarah, or she and an unknown "third person" killed Sarah.
Opinion Poll

///

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

__________________________--

Just who's mindset, Rose? The public? The cops? The courts? Apparently, the Italian public disagrees with you. 90% of those responding to this poll think she did it, either she alone killed Sarah, she and her uncle (Michele) killed Sarah, or she and an unknown "third person" killed Sarah.
Opinion Poll

///

Argumentum ad populum.

 

[JREF2010]

Hello everyone,
I had wondered why Rudy Guede had his photograph taken by the Polizia Scientifica Perugia and I recieved a couple of replies, none of which have satisfied my curiousity, especially since I recall the discussion of Amanda Knox getting a ticket for having a party, which did not entail her mug shot to be taken.

Does anyone have any information why Rudy Guede had his mug shot taken by the Polizia Scientifica Perugia before Meredith Kercher was brutally killed?
Thanks for any replies, RWVBWL

PS-Here is the link to Rudy Guede's mug shots:
http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/archives/179047.asp
In it you will see 2 sets of photo's of Rudy Guede, taken before the murder of Miss Meredith Kercher.

PSS-I ask this question once again, for with the recent news that the police had a heroin drug dealing investigation hanging over Antonio Curatolo's head for many years, well I wonder if the police had something also on Rudy Guede. Why was his mug shot taken by the Polizia Scientifica Perugia before Miss Kercher's murder. What had Rudy Guede done that merited him getting his mug shot photograph taken?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfA7rrmfedE

he was busted in Milan for burglary, he also had stolen items in his backpack, or thats the victims story in this video. Some would prefer to blame the victim and choose Rudy as being totally innocent based on the fact he wasnt convicted of anything.

nick pisa wrote-
Murderer Rudy Guede was identified by police after his bloody fingerprint was found on a cushion at the scene of the crime.

The 21-year-old Ivory Coast national had given his fingerprints when he applied for an Italian identity card several years earlier.

He was known to police after being stopped and searched several times and was known as a petty thief and small time drug dealer.


another-Rudy's finger prints were on file from a previous arrest in Milan.

The owner of a Milan nursery school testified in court that Rudy Guede had broken into her school and stolen a big kitchen knife. Nursery school owner Maria del Prato testified that she had stopped by her school Saturday Oct. 27, when it was closed, and came upon Guede in her office.

"I asked him who he was," she told the court, "and he replied perfectly calmly, even though I had caught him red-handed." Del Prato said he told her he was "a kid from Perugia" who had arrived the night before and had nowhere to sleep.

Del Prato doubted his story, as her locker had been opened, and she said she believed Rudy was looking for something to steal. Some small change was missing, and Del Prato noticed Rudy had a laptop, but he told her it was his.
When police arrived at the school, they searched Rudy's backpack and found a large knife with a 16-inch blade that had been taken from the school kitchen.

Rudy was later booked at a Milan police station and accused of theft, receiving stolen goods, and in possession of a weapon. He was also fingerprinted and then released. It was this arrest that put his finger prints on file allowing the police to identify him.



edit> i see now, you ask about the picture on the far left, from Perugia....not the two mugshots on the right from Milan.

I wonder too, why did the Perugia Police have his mug shot before the murder?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfA7rrmfedE

he was busted in Milan for burglary, he also had stolen items in his backpack, or thats the victims story in this video. Some would prefer to blame the victim and choose Rudy as being totally innocent based on the fact he wasnt convicted of anything.

nick pisa wrote-
Murderer Rudy Guede was identified by police after his bloody fingerprint was found on a cushion at the scene of the crime.

The 21-year-old Ivory Coast national had given his fingerprints when he applied for an Italian identity card several years earlier.

He was known to police after being stopped and searched several times and was known as a petty thief and small time drug dealer.


another-Rudy's finger prints were on file from a previous arrest in Milan.

The owner of a Milan nursery school testified in court that Rudy Guede had broken into her school and stolen a big kitchen knife. Nursery school owner Maria del Prato testified that she had stopped by her school Saturday Oct. 27, when it was closed, and came upon Guede in her office.

"I asked him who he was," she told the court, "and he replied perfectly calmly, even though I had caught him red-handed." Del Prato said he told her he was "a kid from Perugia" who had arrived the night before and had nowhere to sleep.

Del Prato doubted his story, as her locker had been opened, and she said she believed Rudy was looking for something to steal. Some small change was missing, and Del Prato noticed Rudy had a laptop, but he told her it was his.
When police arrived at the school, they searched Rudy's backpack and found a large knife with a 16-inch blade that had been taken from the school kitchen.

Rudy was later booked at a Milan police station and accused of theft, receiving stolen goods, and in possession of a weapon. He was also fingerprinted and then released. It was this arrest that put his finger prints on file allowing the police to identify him.



edit> i see now, you ask about the picture on the far left, from Perugia....not the two mugshots on the right from Milan.

I wonder too, why did the Perugia Police have his mug shot before the murder?

I don’t understand why there is continued comment about Guede, his conviction and sentence has been confirmed, his case is over in the context of the Italian legal system, am I missing something? Even if he were called by either side he not he is not going to testify.

 

[RoseMontague]

__________________________--

Just who's mindset, Rose? The public? The cops? The courts? Apparently, the Italian public disagrees with you. 90% of those responding to this poll think she did it, either she alone killed Sarah, she and her uncle (Michele) killed Sarah, or she and an unknown "third person" killed Sarah.
Opinion Poll

///

Fortunately, in this case we have transcripts of the original interrogation of Michele. Both Frank and katy_did have provided some good feedback on the questioning and it is very obvious that they coerced him into naming Sabrina.

I have the original PDF of the detention order that contains the transcripts. You may still be able to find it online but I believe it has been disappearatated. Frank had a discussion of it in his OP on the case and katy_did also posted some information on the transcripts if you want to search on this forum for it.

ETA:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6498628&postcount=13083

 

[Alt+F4]

I don’t understand why there is continued comment about Guede, his conviction and sentence has been confirmed, his case is over in the context of the Italian legal system, am I missing something? Even if he were called by either side he not he is not going to testify.

He might, if the defense calls his former cellmate, the babykiller.

 

[Alt+F4]

Is Hellmann accommodating a request by Raffaele's defense to hold trial when Bongiorno would be back from leave? Mid-March would be in that time frame.

I believe she's not even due to have her baby until March.

 

[babycondor]

Guede

I don’t understand why there is continued comment about Guede, his conviction and sentence has been confirmed, his case is over in the context of the Italian legal system, am I missing something? Even if he were called by either side he not he is not going to testify.

I think Guede is still relevant because Amanda and Raffaele were convicted under a theory that they did the crime with Rudy. A key question in the case is whether Rudy acted alone.

Why do you believe that he would not testify if called by either side?

 

[christianahannah]

I believe she's not even due to have her baby until March.

According to this article she has already had the baby. I am including both original and Google translate links.

http://mamma.pourfemme.it/articolo/...maschietto-per-la-deputata-parlamentare/9721/

http://translate.google.com/transla...maschietto-per-la-deputata-parlamentare/9721/