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Rules on Smoking - Too Strict?

And remind me... what does it say on your avatar?

I never realised wild assumptions were such a big part of logic... I'll never look at Spock in the same way again.

Wild assumptions? If you really need me to spell it out for you, I will.

So this is what you asked for:
Provide a direct quote from anyone suggesting that non smokers should be made to breathe unwanted smoke.

And here's the relevant section of the OP:
1). The entrance way to my office has an awning. During the winter months, or when it's raining in the warmer months, the smoker folks tend to congregate under the awning to stay out of the elements. Apparently, there have been some complaints from anonymous non-smokers saying that it's BS that they have to "walk through a cloud of smoke" to enter the building (which is a gross over-exaggeration). So now the smokers must stand 100 feet away from the entranceway and stay away from the awning. Now smokers have no choice but to stand in the rain/snow/wind to enjoy their cancer-stick.

So here, Sabretooth is saying that when it's raining or snowing, he should be allowed to smoke by the entrance. It necessarily follows that anyone using the entrance during this period will be forced to inhale his smoke. There are a few possible exceptions, but they're pretty ridiculous, and I can't imagine why you'd argue for them:

A. The non-smokers should hold their breath while using the entrance.
B. The non-smokers should refrain from using the entrance while smokers are in the area.
C. The smokers should refrain from exhaling while they are around the entrance.

I think this is pretty clear. If you still don't understand, feel free to ask any questions.

You accused me of making "wild assumptions." I'd like to see some examples.
 
You accused me of making "wild assumptions." I'd like to see some examples.
You assumed the OP was recommending "non smokers should be made to breathe unwanted smoke." When all through the thread the OP has stated that is not what they are asking for at all and neither is anyone else.

Your A, B, C choices are also misrepresentations of the OP's position. The closest you have come in your errrr... "logical" workings is that the OP's position is exactly the opposite of your B choice. He is suggesting that smokers should not use the awning if there are any non smokers around.

SmokingSmall.jpg


*must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved.... damn it!!!
 
So here, Sabretooth is saying that when it's raining or snowing, he should be allowed to smoke by the entrance.
Sabretooth doesn't even smoke anymore... please keep up old chap.


*must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved.... damn it!!!
 
Suck it smokers, the rules aren't strict enough. Goon squads should target smokers and confiscate cancer sticks at gunpoint.
 
He is suggesting that smokers should not use the awning if there are any non smokers around.

So if there are smokers there, and then someone else needs to enter or exit the building, then... what? Everybody shuffles over so one person can get through? Can we do it in fast forward with Yakkity Sax playing? Gotta wait for the smoke to dissipate, too. So you're basically picking option B anyways.

My A, B, and C options are not even directly related to the OP, so they can't be misrepresentations. They were exceptions to the implications of the complaint, but as I stated, they're so ridiculous that they are actually worse than "non-smokers inhaling smoke." I believe I was quite clear on this.

You're still not really addressing my argument.
 
today, I can't stand the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me physically sick (sometimes to the point of wanting to vomit). I can't bare to sit next to any smoker and if I'm on a plane and the person next to me reeks of smoke, I asked to be moved elsewhere.
I was in my workplace once, facing away from the door, hunched over a stack of papers I was editing, and without looking up I said, "Hey, Ali. Been out for a cigarette break?" My boss had just come into the room: from fifteen feet away I could still smell the tobacco smoke.

Best. Thread. Ever. It's got everything: Nazis, gum-induced psychosis, some sort of Wi-Fi cigarettes... it's even better than a gun-control thread.
It's a gum-control thread!

*must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved.... damn it!!!
*must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved.... damn it!!!
*must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved.... damn it!!!
*must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved.... damn it!!!
*must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved.... damn it!!!
*must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved.... damn it!!!
*must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved.... damn it!!!
*must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved.... damn it!!!
*must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved.... damn it!!!

Come up with a new punchline.
 
You're still not really addressing my argument.
That would be because you don't really have a logical one.



*must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved.... damn it!!!
 
So if there are smokers there, and then someone else needs to enter or exit the building, then... what? Everybody shuffles over so one person can get through?
None of the anti-smoking brigade here have addressed my proposed solution, which is to give employers the legal right to provide an indoor smoking room, as the law previously allowed. The issue of smokers congregating around entrances to buildings has only arisen because they now have to stand outside. If we had a smoking room we would be out of your air space in no time at all.

Can we do it in fast forward with Yakkity Sax playing?
Sorry, don't know who Yakkity Sax is, but Stray Cat could sing for you if you like. :)

Gotta wait for the smoke to dissipate, too. So you're basically picking option B anyways.
Is it the momentary smell of tobacco smoke that you abhore so much, or the thought that you might be endangering your health? Because if it is the latter, then I wonder why no-one picked up on my two posts about nicotine and carbon monoxide concentrations in cigarette smoke the other day? These demonstrated that the concentrations were significantly less than from vehicle exhaust fumes in the case of CO, and in minute amounts that wouldn't affect your health in the case of nicotine. Now, with that in mind, if this hypothetical workpace entrance is located on a highway, then it strikes me that you will be inhaling significantly more CO walking down the sidewalk than you will be once you get to the group of smokers by the front door.

Or perhaps, somewhat tragically for a thread on forum dedicated to scepticism, you're not actually interested in looking at the evidence, but only concerned about your preconceived notions?
 
Come up with a new punchline.
Why, is my present puchline an imagined threat to your health?
Am I not allowed to use punchlines even when there aren't any non punchline users around?



*must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved.... damn it!!!
 
Why, is my present puchline an imagined threat to your health?
Am I not allowed to use punchlines even when there aren't any non punchline users around?

Huh! Typical of you repeat punchline users! Don't you realise MY fresh punchlines stink of your old punchlines.

*Must stick my nose into a smoking thread - (think about it folks)*
 
Suck it smokers, the rules aren't strict enough. Goon squads should target smokers and confiscate cancer sticks at gunpoint.
WTF!! :eek:

Uh huh. So you can walk around the streets with a loaded gun designed to kill third parties (and lots of evidence to prove it does) and that's ok, but it's not ok for smokers to have their needs catered for so that they can smoke in comfort and not inconvenience non-smokers? Such equality in your world.

There was Laughing Baby only a couple of days ago rejecting my analogy with racism against Blacks because smokers aren't the victims of mindless violence, and you suggest threatening us with loaded weapons?

I think you just demonstrated that your hatred of smokers far outweighs any reasonable and rational reaction to having to share a planet with people who smoke tobacco for pleasure. I was being tongue in cheek when I asked how long it would be until we were hounded out of town by pitch-fork waving extremists, now I am beginning to despair that some people might actually consider that a reasonable thing to do to a tobacco smoker. :confused:
 
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None of the anti-smoking brigade here have addressed my proposed solution, which is to give employers the legal right to provide an indoor smoking room, as the law previously allowed.

I'm curious. Do you have some information on how many employers are keen to devote resources towards installing heavy-duty ventilation systems, monitoring respirable particle levels in the rest of the building, paying the inevitable fines, and updating and remediating their facility vs. doing the minimum necessary and sending the smokers outside? Especially in the setting of the OP who bemoaned employers who wouldn't even bother setting up a shelter outside?

Linda
 
Huh! Typical of you repeat punchline users! Don't you realise MY fresh punchlines stink of your old punchlines.

*Must stick my nose into a smoking thread - (think about it folks)*


Ah, sorry about that Bluesjnr, we used to have a punchline room were I could use punchlines well out of the way of other people, but because of recent legislation based upon studies showing that some people don't like other people using punchlines regardless of actual circumstances, my punchline using habit is now even more likely to be a problem for other people.
Of course I wouldn't want to inflict my punchlines on to non punchline users and completely respect their decision not to use punchlines, but somehow the respect isn't mutual.
It won't be long before I can't even use punchlines in my own house. :)

*must not get involved in another punchline thread, must not get involved in another punchline thread, must not get involved.... damn it!!!
 
I'm curious. Do you have some information on how many employers are keen to devote resources towards installing heavy-duty ventilation systems, monitoring respirable particle levels in the rest of the building, paying the inevitable fines, and updating and remediating their facility vs. doing the minimum necessary and sending the smokers outside? Especially in the setting of the OP who bemoaned employers who wouldn't even bother setting up a shelter outside?

Linda
Then if there is no need or desire on behalf of employers to take such measures, what's the problem with offering them the choice to do it?
You seem to be saying that something that wouldn't be done needs legislating against. That's as pointless as making it illegal to fly to the moon on a pushbike.

*must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved.... damn it!!!
 
Then if there is no need or desire on behalf of employers to take such measures, what's the problem with offering them the choice to do it?

I didn't say that there was. I don't see any problem with it as long as the extra cost for monitoring and enforcing regulations is borne by smokers. I was just curious as to whether this really was a solution - i.e. whether we had any indications that any employers would actually implement this solution, especially given that they wouldn't even bother putting up a cheap shelter outside.

Linda
 
I'm curious. Do you have some information on how many employers are keen to devote resources towards installing heavy-duty ventilation systems, monitoring respirable particle levels in the rest of the building, paying the inevitable fines, and updating and remediating their facility vs. doing the minimum necessary and sending the smokers outside? Especially in the setting of the OP who bemoaned employers who wouldn't even bother setting up a shelter outside?

Linda
But Linda, this is the fallacy of the 'veritable indoor tornado' that would be required to nullify the effects of second hand smoke, as espoused by James Repace, the ardent anti-smoking campaigner, in his paper 'Controlling Tobacco Smoke Pollution', and the parallel myth that there is 'no safe level' of particulates from tobacco smoke.

Repace's calculations and methodology in that paper, published in the journal of the American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air-conditioning Engineers (hardly The Lancet, right? :rolleyes:) were nothing short of ludicrous. On the basis that an average sized bar would require 18 air changes/hour and that 6,750 out of a million bar workers exposed to second hand smoke would die as a result (both unsubstantiated claims) he then multiplied the two figures and concluded that the hypothetical bar would need 33 air changes per second to ensure that no-one would die. I wager that to any reasonable person this is patently absurd.

But, on the basis of these claims the British government decided that ventilation systems in pubs would be useless and therefore the only solution was a universal ban on smoking in public places.

Suggesting that a building containing a small room where people can smoke, with windows and a fan or vent, would also require equipment placed throughout to measure air particulates I consider to be an example of melodramatic overkill. I know as a doctor you will probably disagree and consider such steps to be reasonable to protect employee health, but life is about risk and there is a level at which we say that the steps required to minimise the risk are greater than what can be justified by the scale of the risk.

In terms of second hand smoke (SHS), in my opinion it is the years and years of unrelenting propaganda from the anti-smoking lobby has resulted in the threat of SHS being blown up out of all proportion in the minds of both health professionals and the public.

I am not a promoter of the tobacco companies, I don't work for Philip Morris, but I believe passionately in freedom of choice and tolerance for other people's behaviours and lifestyles. In the West we are becoming a society of fearful isolationists, paranoid about our health and nebulous threats from unseen bogey-men. We are losing our communities, as evidenced by the closure of pub houses across the UK. We are losing our trust in our neighbours. This might be the world that some people want, but it isn't the world that I want. :(

Sorry, I went off on something a tangent there. Apologies if I de-railed.
 
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I didn't say that there was. I don't see any problem with it as long as the extra cost for monitoring and enforcing regulations is borne by smokers. I was just curious as to whether this really was a solution - i.e. whether we had any indications that any employers would actually implement this solution, especially given that they wouldn't even bother putting up a cheap shelter outside.

Linda

As a non-coffee drinker (bottled water here) I bitterly resented the coffee addicts who went to the machine 10 times a day and often had good ol' non-productive chats while they were there. And that our employer was happy to pay for the machines at my expense.

Well, I didn't really resent it at all of course. What I did resent was the backbiting about how much time smoke breaks were 'costing' when non-smokers didn't get such breaks. Piffle ... we all take breaks of the official and unofficial kind but, once again, smoke breaks are conspicuous and therefore attract condemnation.

Meanwhile it's much less time-consuming to nip into a smoke room than get down and up several flights of building while going outside for a puff.

To continue the somewhat ironic tone, what use is coffee? I mean, Dilbert's chum Wally is devoted to coffee and avoiding work.
 
But Linda, this is the fallacy of the 'veritable indoor tornado' that would be required to nullify the effects of second hand smoke, as espoused by James Repace, the ardent anti-smoking campaigner, in his paper 'Controlling Tobacco Smoke Pollution', and the parallel myth that there is 'no safe level' of particulates from tobacco smoke.

I wasn't thinking of Rapace's paper since it's mostly irrelevant (i.e. regardless of whether or not you think the model is accurate, what should matter is what happens when the measures are implemented with regards to known hazards (i.e. pre-existing standards which aren't subject to accusations of bias by either side)). I was thinking of the paper you or Stray Cat referenced in a previous thread where a bar owner made a concerted effort to put in an adequate system to allow for a smoking room and the results were measured and compared with relatively non-smoking facilities. And what was found was not just that the 'non-smoking' areas of the bar/restaurant exceeded safe levels of respirable particles (which was to be expected), but that the relatively non-smoking shopping mall also exceeded these levels. By virtue of having a (seemingly isolated) restaurant within the mall which allowed smoking and a crowd of smokers outside the food court doors, respirable particles where introduced into the ventilation at an excessive concentration.

I realize this sucks, but let's say an employer sets up a room with a fan or vent. An employee just has to complain about smelling smoke in the rest of the building a few times, in order to inspire testing, and the employer will eventually have to deal with failed air quality tests. It seems reasonable to guess that they will decide pretty quickly that the costs (such as fines and equipment installation) are just not worth it.

Suggesting that a building containing a small room where people can smoke, with windows and a fan or vent, would also require equipment placed throughout to measure air particulates I consider to be an example of melodramatic overkill. I know as a doctor you will probably disagree and consider such steps to be reasonable to protect employee health, but life is about risk and there is a level at which we say that the steps required to minimise the risk are greater than what can be justified by the scale of the risk.

I don't disagree with that last bit. It's just that we seemed comfortable with the chosen level of protection until it turned out that second-hand smoke violated it. Now all of a sudden it becomes imperative that we offer little in the way of protection, or that a vulnerable group of workers be allowed to 'choose' to forego safety? You have to admit that this appears to be merely self-serving, rather than a legitimate concern about the level of regulation with respect to occupational safety generally.

Linda
 
As a non-coffee drinker (bottled water here) I bitterly resented the coffee addicts who went to the machine 10 times a day and often had good ol' non-productive chats while they were there. And that our employer was happy to pay for the machines at my expense.

Well, I didn't really resent it at all of course. What I did resent was the backbiting about how much time smoke breaks were 'costing' when non-smokers didn't get such breaks. Piffle ... we all take breaks of the official and unofficial kind but, once again, smoke breaks are conspicuous and therefore attract condemnation.

Meanwhile it's much less time-consuming to nip into a smoke room than get down and up several flights of building while going outside for a puff.

To continue the somewhat ironic tone, what use is coffee? I mean, Dilbert's chum Wally is devoted to coffee and avoiding work.

I'm not sure what your point is, but as far as I know, there aren't any safety regulations which address how employees should use their time. Isn't the ability to bitch to your boss or co-workers a sufficient remedy?

Linda
 
I didn't say that there was. I don't see any problem with it as long as the extra cost for monitoring and enforcing regulations is borne by smokers. I was just curious as to whether this really was a solution - i.e. whether we had any indications that any employers would actually implement this solution, especially given that they wouldn't even bother putting up a cheap shelter outside.

Linda
But until the choice is put back into the hands of individual employers I guess we'll never know. And of course air quality was already monitored and regulated by existing health and safety regulations in any work place, so I don't see what the real problem is.

Even if I had an indoor public space environment where I allowed people to smoke which didn't exceed the 'toxic' levels legislated for, it would still be illegal, so it's not really about air quality is it.

As for your curiosity as to whether employers would go to such lengths to accommodate people's requirements, the historic precedent is that responsible employers always made efforts to comply with the law and their staff's opinions. It is true that even if the employer was given the choice, he may not take up the idea, I wouldn't have any objection to his decision and I don't think that majority of free minded responsible smokers would either. :)

*must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved in another smoking thread, must not get involved.... damn it!!!
 

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