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Merged Applicability of Bazant's model to the real world

To be honest, I truly believe that these 2 twoofs are attacking the Bazant reports with only one thing in mind.
Then your honest and true belief is simply nonsense.

Yet again, the thread was started by pgimeno to highlight misapplication and ensure correct application.

I've stated repeatedly that as far as I'm concerned any claims of applicability to real world behaviour are walking a very thin and very grey line.

The basic premise that there was enough energy for propogation to ground given the defined initial state...no problem.

If you choose to fantasise about intent, that's your problem.
 
As I've said repeatedly on that thread, I don't think it was a great idea to include MIHOP details in the conclusion (though I do understand why they have been, and the scope intended), and similarly I don't think the posts you reference do MT any favours given the hostile climate and penchant for misinterpretation that can occur here.

As intent is on the table, I imagine the intent is to highlight that such a scenario could *debunk* all the theories passed around by the likes of AE911T suggesting only floor-by-floor explosives could cause the observed events, and also the flip-side that *debunkers* suggesting that the *operation* to install such a large quantity of hardware would be impossible and leave mountains of evidence behind. MT has openly expressed that his intent is to remove progression from the dialogue of *both sides*.

Come on, Major Tom finally shared his fantasy; what's yours?
MT has stated a small-implementation-scale MIHOP theory. Does he think that is what happened ? No idea. Ask him. Is he stating that's what happened ? No.

I mentioned the Ammonium Perchlorate outline from Dr G. the other day. Does that mean that I think that is what happened ? No. Does it mean the opposite ? No.

I am looking at fine detail real world behaviour, have presented data on early motion of WTC 1 and 7 (which has all manner of obvious implications) and will continue to examine details until I'm personally satisfied the shortcomings of all available publications have been overcome. I don't need a *fantasy*. If I find a glaring *problem* I'll highlight it.

So, as I said...

If you choose to fantasise about intent, that's your problem.
 
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Then your honest and true belief is simply nonsense.

Yet again, the thread was started by pgimeno to highlight misapplication and ensure correct application.

I've stated repeatedly that as far as I'm concerned any claims of applicability to real world behaviour are walking a very thin and very grey line.

The basic premise that there was enough energy for propogation to ground given the defined initial state...no problem.

If you choose to fantasise about intent, that's your problem.

****** please.

MT has basically stated that progression is irrelevant. I believe you have too.

You both believe yourselves to have some level of "authority" of the collapses due to your pixel counting, misunderstanding/misapplication of physics, and faulty maths.

The only reason that any sane and rational person can see as to why you would bother with Bazant's analysis of collapse progression - deemed irrelevant by you - is to try and build cred.

A new debunker can do this too by attacking stupid claims from new, stupid twoofs of hijackers are alive, etc.

Nobody is gonna buy it, other than other insane twoofs.

Edited, breach of rule 0, rule 10, rule 12.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar
 
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I'm open minded about everything. I just require evidence.
...
Why can't you take this advice on board and use words and numbers to make your arguments?
The evidence in this context is, of course, the video record.

Words are, of course, opinion on that evidence.
Numbers are, of course, total abstraction of that evidence. Spherical cows come to mind.


It is quite ironic that the textual arguments from many are based solely upon words and numbers from others, not any obvious familiarity with the actual video evidence.

Acceptance of those words and numbers based opinions which do not match the video evidence record even more ironic.

Rejection of the video evidence and preference for abstracted word and number based opinion just doesn't sit well with me I'm afraid.
 
***** please.
Edited by Locknar: 
Moderated content removed.
:(

MT has basically stated that progression is irrelevant. I believe you have too.
Irrelevant ? No. Widely misunderstood, absolutely, as recent discussions are total testament to.

You both believe yourselves to have some level of "authority" of the collapses due to your pixel counting, misunderstanding/misapplication of physics, and faulty maths.
Nonsense.

The only reason that any sane and rational person can see as to why you would bother with Bazant's analysis of collapse progression - deemed irrelevant by you - is to try and build cred.
Nonsense.

A new debunker can do this too by attacking stupid claims from new, stupid twoofs of hijackers are alive, etc.
Irrelevant.

Nobody is gonna buy it, other than other insane twoofs.
Paranoid delusion.

Have a nice day.
 
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femr2 said:
Rejection of the video evidence and preference for abstracted word and number based opinion just doesn't sit well with me I'm afraid.
I asked this before, and apologize for not digging through the thread to find it, because my recollection is that you didn't address it. Again, apologies if I'm wrong.

Could you please explain how the above post being made by a bigfoot believer, JFK conspiracist or UFOs are aliens person would be different than your argument?
 
Could you please explain how the above post being made by a bigfoot believer, JFK conspiracist or UFOs are aliens person would be different than your argument?
Eh ? Not sure I understand your point.

If you are asking about interpretation of footage of "bigfoot", "JFK, er, something" or "UFO blob" then you are talking about apples and oranges.

The WTC video record presented is fully authentic, the details clear, and the interpretation step, certainly in this case, is absolutely clear...

lateperimeterpeel2.gif

Perimeter peel far behind crush front.


Those words alone are enough *interpretation* in my opinion. If others require more words to state the obvious for those familiar with the picture in hand, that's fine, but it doesn't change the obviousness of the words I've underlined the animation with....imo ;) (I'm sure there are folk who would choose to argue pedantic semantics on the choice of words, but meh...irrelevant)

Indeed I've offered to apply some of my time to annotating said animation to make pertinent features clearer for those struggling to see what I find obvious.

Discarding the animation and trying to express what it contains in textual form only is very tedious and, especially around here, met with all manner of objection that such couldn't possibly happen (tfk's recent hand waving a prime example there)... along with demands to produce some actual evidence to prove the validity of the words. :rolleyes:

So, for me, a picture tells a thousand words.

Folk can argue about the content for as long as they please, but the animation shows...

Perimeter peel far behind crush front.

(and much more besides, however in the context of the discussion, that is the pertinent point)
 
Eh ? Not sure I understand your point.

If you are asking about interpretation of footage of "bigfoot", "JFK, er, something" or "UFO blob" then you are talking about apples and oranges.

The WTC video record presented is fully authentic, the details clear, and the interpretation step, certainly in this case, is absolutely clear...

For your consideration

I'll let others reply to your assertion that the video depicts what you say it does, and judge the implications thereof.
 
As I've said repeatedly on that thread, I don't think it was a great idea to include MIHOP details in the conclusion (though I do understand why they have been, and the scope intended), and similarly I don't think the posts you reference do MT any favours given the hostile climate and penchant for misinterpretation that can occur here..

I'm just mentioning it is not extremely hard to initiate collapse. It is guaranteed that this will lead Carlitos to misinterpret it to the extreme.

MT has openly expressed that his intent is to remove progression from the dialogue of *both sides*.

The mechanism of progression, yes, but specific features of progression that may not be consistent with a natural ROOSD process, no.


MT has stated a small-implementation-scale MIHOP theory. Does he think that is what happened ? No idea. Ask him. Is he stating that's what happened ? No.

I mentioned the Ammonium Perchlorate outline from Dr G. the other day. Does that mean that I think that is what happened ? No. Does it mean the opposite ? No.

I stated how easy it is to do, which connections are pretty vulnerable.

Then Carlitos labels it as "my MIHOP theory". That is expected.

I am looking at fine detail real world behaviour, have presented data on early motion of WTC 1 and 7 (which has all manner of obvious implications) and will continue to examine details until I'm personally satisfied the shortcomings of all available publications have been overcome. I don't need a *fantasy*. If I find a glaring *problem* I'll highlight it.

So, as I said...

If you choose to fantasise about intent, that's your problem.

I totally agree. A list of physical features studied in detail. Carlitos needs to pin detailed demo theories on anyone not sharing his limited views.

I'll mention possible methods and the most vulnerable targets, but only to show that most truther and debunker thoughts on the subject are exaggerated claims.

I prefer to list features and discuss the possibility or probablility of these features occurring in a natural colllapse. Without inside information, there is no other way to proceed other than by careful observation.
 
For your consideration

I'll let others reply to your assertion that the video depicts what you say it does, and judge the implications thereof.
Since femr2 and the truthers are the only ones endowed with X-ray vision (that apparently works on captured images!) that allows them to see what is happening through the debris cloud (or is that "Pyroclastic Flow"?), we have to take his word for it...
 
Eh ? Not sure I understand your point.

If you are asking about interpretation of footage of "bigfoot", "JFK, er, something" or "UFO blob" then you are talking about apples and oranges.
...

Engineering advice, set some goals.
 
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we have to take his word for it...
Not at all. I've pointed you at the video record. That's the point, words are always subjective.

Think of the irony of what you are saying. You don't want to take my word for it, so what you want is more words from me. S'nice ;)

If you have a problem with my concise statement about perimeter peeling trailing behind the crush front, what is it ?

I'll make it simpler* for you, and remind you of a bit of context...

tfk waved his hands around...
Do you know what the tensile strength of a 3/4" mild steel bolt is? You had about 120 of them stretched across each floor, tying the exterior columns to the cables tied to the trusses. They failed in tension.

Do you know what the shear strength of same sized bolt is? You had about 60 of those tying each truss to its truss seat. Those failed in shear.

Tell me again how a 200' wide by 6 story tall wall of free standing 14" x 14" x 1/4" thick box columns are going to continue standing serenely while one entire floor's worth of those bolts are all jerked, from one side, to failure.

When they are famously "pulling" a free-standing wall of a building to failure with cables, do you think that they need to use that many bolts?
___

Ever seen a bulldozer plow its way thru a rocky field? That is, in essence, what the upper block is doing to the lower block.

Ever notice how the material being plowed does not form a perfectly straight line, equal in width to the bulldozer's blade? But rather builds up on each side of the blade & is shoved sideways as the dozer cuts a swath.

You're claiming that the upper block, plowing its way thru the lower structure, created a front end that matched perfectly the inside dimensions of the peripheral wall???

:dl:

And magically sheared all the internal floors perfectly from outer columns ??

:dl: :dl:

And left a massively unstable external wall standing in place???

:dl: :dl: :dl:

And it wasn't until the crush front had long since passed by, with the high pressure front IN ADVANCE of it, that the outer walls suddenly threw themselves in all direction??

:dl: :dl: :dl: :dl:

Or perhaps it was late-firing nanothermite that threw the external columns hundreds of feet …?
...which though assuredly quite embarrasing for him, is his way of indicating he doesn't believe that the perimeter could remain upright at all after the crush front has advanced.

The video clips I have posted show very clearly that his belief is nonsense.

Take my word for it ? No, use your eyes and your own judgement.
I know that may mean *turning on tfk* highlighting what a lot of nonsense he wrote, but hey...
 
set some goals.
Ahem...
femr2 said:
I am looking at fine detail real world behaviour, have presented data on early motion of WTC 1 and 7 (which has all manner of obvious implications) and will continue to examine details until I'm personally satisfied the shortcomings of all available publications have been overcome.
 
All right, I'll take you at your word.

No silly "words" required. Video & conclusions are all that is necessary.

Conclusion: Outer wall peel occurs AT, not behind, the crush front.

Proof:
lateperimeterpeel2.gif


Hey, I LIKE this.

Allow me to wrap up:

Conclusion: Bazant was correct about inevitability of progressive collapse to ground.
(hell, I was going to go looking for different gifs, but this proof technique is GREAT!)

Proof: http://femr2.ucoz.com/lateperimeterpeel2.gif
___

Conclusion: No CD.

Proof: http://femr2.ucoz.com/lateperimeterpeel2.gif
___

Conclusion: NIST got it right.

Proof: http://femr2.ucoz.com/lateperimeterpeel2.gif
___

Conclusion: Twoofers are delusional.

Proof: http://femr2.ucoz.com/lateperimeterpeel2.gif
___

Ya know, femr, I think you're on to something...[/quote]

Edited by LashL: 
Removed repetitive images. Do not repeat the same image over and over again.
 
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Ahem...

I am looking at fine detail real world behaviour, have presented data on early motion of WTC 1 and 7 (which has all manner of obvious implications) and will continue to examine details until I'm personally satisfied the shortcomings of all available publications have been overcome.
Low res video...
Oh, study of the collapse, means nothing. Good goal for 911 truth.
Obvious implications for you paranoid conspiracy theories to grow in the piles of BS, and jiggly GIFs.
What shortcomings? You got a list, to go with your quest for demolition delusions?

What was your goal? Study dust falling. got it

Your technobabble is showing.
 
tfk waved his hands around...

Ahhh, I get it now.

Asking pertinent structural engineering questions amounts to "hand waving".

And posting gifs with no explanations constitutes "solid arguments & unequivocal proofs".

Gotcha...

...which though assuredly quite embarrasing for him, is his way of indicating he doesn't believe that the perimeter could remain upright at all after the crush front has advanced.

The video clips I have posted show very clearly that his belief is nonsense.

Sorry, I just posted a gif that PROVES, beyond doubt, that perimeter walls can not possibly survive the crush front.

Here it is again.

lateperimeterpeel2.gif


Shhhhh, now.

None of them silly "words" required.

LoL.
 
Sorry, I just posted a gif that PROVES, beyond doubt, that perimeter walls can not possibly survive the crush front.

There's a serious problem with your GIF. The building in the fore-ground does not shift position with every frame and there's no "pulsating" action. Obvious fake!


:rolleyes:


Perhaps if you over-lay a graph or two.




:boxedin:
 
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Sorry, I just posted a gif that PROVES, beyond doubt, that perimeter walls can not possibly survive the crush front.
You don't see the corner remnant sticking up ?

You don't see the East perimeter being pushed out by the wedge action of the tilted upper section ?

A bit like this...
33a9ms7.gif

(An image, to illustrate a valid point ;) )

Here it is again.
You know, there are rules here about posting the same image over and over again.

Shhhhh, now.

None of them silly "words" required.

LoL.
Do you mean like these...
tfk said:
I've got 6, count 'em, 6 solid pieces of evidence that they are from the lower block. Two of them are conclusive that they can not possibly be from the upper block.

What have you got that they are from the upper?
tfk said:
I categorically disagree.

They are clearly, they can ONLY be, the west wall of the LOWER block.

Your evidence that they are from the upper block, please.

Then I'll give my evidence that they are from the lower block.
...within which you are talking about the WEST face, showing a view of the north and east faces of WTC2, when your response, pointed at MT was about WTC1 ?

Funny stuff.

You're not going to be able to shout and *snark* your way out of your foolishness I'm afraid.
 

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