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Merged Applicability of Bazant's model to the real world

TFK you were right....

Femr2 really DOES try to always have the last word! ROFL Its freaking hilarious...

Of course you are also right about the errors that femr2 and MT have made in this (and other) threads as well.

Femr2....

I will likely regret asking you this (especially after the conservation of momentum fiasco) but just WHAT IS YOUR CLAIM ABOUT THE BAZANT PAPERS?

I know I know....you don't "claim" anything or something like that...but just for the record tell us what YOU think happened to the towers?

Was it an inside jobby job? Was it explosives? Nano/Super/Whatever Thermite?

Was Bazant in on it? Were the other authors of the papers? Was NIST?

Do you believe that Bazant's models are "wrong"? Do you think they have absolutely no basis in reality?

Do you think that NIST, Bazant, etc simply "missed" these revelations you have had from looking at photographs and videos of the collapse?
 
Looks like you have not understood. I'm disputing the Bazant calculated crush front velocity, based upon prior determination of it's actual progression velocity in the real world.

...
Therefore their overpressure velocity, which they base upon their incorrect calculated crush front velocity is also wrong.

ROFL indeed. The overpressure velocity is a rough general idea, but as others on the forum have pointed out, such as onewhiteeye 'I'd bet if a floor diaphragm were punched at 25+ m/s by a large part of another floor and its contents (and so on), debris would blow out from the story below well ahead of the bulk of descending mass impacting the floor. No doubt it would contribute to pressurizing the open space and core passages, which then might produce limited expulsions on floors farther ahead or vent above.'

and Trippy 'then v_0 for the second floor will not be zero, which, because it reduces the amount of time available for the air to be expelled in, increases the velocity with which the air is expelled. Also note that these are average velocities that fall out, not peak velocities (as the floor continues to fall, the size of the apeture reduces, as does the amount of air remaining to be expelled).'

The mechanism is not exactly known, so you cannot know what the peak velocities and overpressures were. You are making many assumptions about it.
I don't really care whether you're fixated on BLBG or not when you make these assumptions, the point is that you keep making them, without having any way to prove them scientifically.

So, no, you haven't demonstrated that such overpressures could not have existed. You're just denying them based on what you are reading in BLBG etc..

It's really a strawman argument, IMO.
 
The mechanism is not exactly known, so you cannot know what the peak velocities and overpressures were. You are making many assumptions about it.
Incorrect. You are really struggling with something very simple...

BLGB stating the velocity of escaping air near the end of crush down ...
837298858.png

...based upon their calculated crush front propogation velocity.

Their calculated crush front propogation velocity is wrong, as is their calculated escaping air velocity, of course.

I don't really care whether you're fixated on BLBG or not when you make these assumptions, the point is that you keep making them, without having any way to prove them scientifically.
Absolute nonsense.

The reason for highlighting the BLGB problem above is simple. They subsequently use that calculation, and the resulting sonic booms, as explanation of explosions. It's nonsense. Feel like linking me to some video with all those sonic booms present ? ;)

See...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6814337&postcount=1623

So, no, you haven't demonstrated that such overpressures could not have existed. You're just denying them based on what you are reading in BLBG etc..
ROFL. Learn to read.

Have a nice day.
 
newton3376 said:
Well...I would say at this point that femr2 and MT have pretty much been thoroughly debunked on the Bazant business.
At this point this is what I am concluding about femr2's and MT's position(s)....feel free to add to this or correct me if I am wrong (only competent people need reply to this):
1. Their position...
2. They focus on...
3. Their position...
If someone has additions/corrections to my conclusions about the position that the truthers are taking in this thread please feel free to post them.
At this point I'm putting their arguments into the "debunked" category along with every other truther argument I have seen to date.

...

Femr2....WHAT IS YOUR CLAIM ABOUT THE BAZANT PAPERS?

ROFL.


As I've said many times, the Bazant et al model(s) provide reasonable mathematical proof that there was enough energy available, even in the limiting case, for progression to ground, given the specified initial state.

Have a nice day.
 
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I'm not sure why you are laughing.....the fact is that you are a "no claimer" truther as twinstead (and many others) have pointed out in this very thread...

It's like pulling teeth to get you to actually make a claim....maybe that's because you don't really have any....or maybe it's because you are not a very good communicator...who knows? I don't actually care what the underlying reason is, but it gets boring after a while.

As I've said many times, the Bazant et al model(s) provide reasonable mathematical proof that there was enough energy available, even in the limiting case, for progression to ground, given the specified initial state.

Okay....

Do you have anything, ANYTHING AT ALL beyond that to say about Bazant?

What about NIST? What is your claim?

Do you think they were part of an "inside job"?

How do you think the collapse initiation began?

What were the mechanisms for the collapse progression in your opinion?

The fact that I have to ask you these questions reflects more on the somewhat cryptic way you post then on me understanding what you read.

The fact is that I AM an Engineer in "real life"...so I am more then capable of understanding the math and physics behind various arguments.....what I often can't understand is what point you are attempting to make in your posts...if any.
 
Incorrect. You are really struggling with something very simple...

BLGB stating the velocity of escaping air near the end of crush down ...
837298858.png

...based upon their calculated crush front propogation velocity.

Their calculated crush front propogation velocity is wrong, as is their calculated escaping air velocity, of course.


Absolute nonsense.

The reason for highlighting the BLGB problem above is simple. They subsequently use that calculation, and the resulting sonic booms, as explanation of explosions. It's nonsense. Feel like linking me to some video with all those sonic booms present ? ;)

See...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6814337&postcount=1623


ROFL. Learn to read.

Have a nice day.
Math and physics, not in 911 truth domain. They are actually conservative on the final velocity. Why is 911 truth always failing?

Do you have the Heiwa's to publish your failed finding? This is funny stuff, you must really hate NIST and Bazant to leave a legacy of nonsense on the web like you have. Your CD theory is a delusion. as you say, "
Absolute nonsense"
 
They are actually conservative on the final velocity.
Choice of ψ and all that, yeah, though exceeding Mach. 1 sounds like an interesting prospect. ROFL.

You really should pay more attention Beachnut. Mach 1 as conservative ?! Funny man.

Sooo Beachnut....

Where are all these multiple sonic booms in the real world A/V footage ? That's gonna be audible for, oooh, long distance ;)

The simple point highlighted, again, is that not only is the crush front calculated value provably wildly inaccurate (at best), but the authors are applying a derived value to the real world and making conclusions from such. Not a good idea. N/A if you will.

Have a nice day.
 
You are really struggling with something very simple...

BLGB stating the velocity of escaping air near the end of crush down ...
[qimg]http://femr2.ucoz.com/_ph/6/837298858.png[/qimg]
...based upon their calculated crush front propogation velocity.

Their calculated crush front propogation velocity is wrong, as is their calculated escaping air velocity, of course.

No Femr2, it isn't simple. What your quotemining is doing is erasing all of the caveats and uncertainty that BLBG propose.
The first is one you quoted, yet don't seem to understand yet:
'There are other phenomena that can cause va to differ from the estimate in Eq.(8)'

The 'other phenomena' which you choose to ignore.

But read further to understand how they are using their calculations - not as absolutes, but frameworks with which to understand the observed collapses:

'All these complex interstory interactions must cause rapid and large random fluctuations of internal air pressure and exiting air velocity. On average, however, what matters is the simple fact that the air must, in one way or another, get expelled from each story of the tower within a very short time interval, which is only 0.07 s near the end of crush-down of the North Tower. This fact inevitably leads to the average exit velocity estimate in Eq.7'

They estimated the final velocity, which may or may not be accurate. Nobody that I am aware of knows that figure for certain. The 9/11 Forum guys use estimates based on the early descent velocities, where it is easy to measure.

Again, their calculations form a basis for the theories, they are not in themselves 'proof' of actual sonic booms, or of air velocities in excess of the speed of sound. There are limitations, y'know ;)


It's nonsense. Feel like linking me to some video with all those sonic booms present ? ;)

Sure thing. These two videos are fairly good audio, where there are pulsating 'booms'. It is plausible that these sounds were partly caused by escaping air pulses, I really don't know.

In the first one, I think the levels have been altered to accentuate the pulses, but they can also be heard on other examples (not as clearly).

Please note, these pulses do not sound like high explosives, in fact I can't really find anything to compare them to.



 
Choice of ψ and all that, yeah, though exceeding Mach. 1 sounds like an interesting prospect. ROFL.

You really should pay more attention Beachnut. Mach 1 as conservative ?! Funny man.


Where are all these multiple sonic booms in the real world A/V footage ? That's gonna be audible for, oooh, long distance ;)

The simple point highlighted, again, is that not only is the crush front calculated value provably wildly inaccurate (at best), but the authors are applying a derived value to the real world and making conclusions from such. Not a good idea. N/A if you will.

Have a nice day.

Look, if you wish to make an arse out of yourself, go ahead. Have you done any research into what kinds of sonic booms are possible? I doubt it.

If you had, you'd realize that the spl's depend on a number of factors, it's not a 'one-size-fits-all' solution. Quick quote for you 'The power, or volume, of the shock wave is dependent on the quantity of air that is being accelerated,'

Do I need to continue to demonstrate that your assumptions are fairly juvenile?

Did you know a bullwhip actually produces a sonic boom? Or that a bullet can? What do you really know about the subject?
 
No Femr2, it isn't simple. What your quotemining is doing is erasing all of the caveats and uncertainty that BLBG propose.
Nonsense. I'll quote the whole thing if it makes folk read the damn thing.

The first is one you quoted, yet don't seem to understand
Incorrect.

'There are other phenomena that can cause va to differ from the estimate in Eq.(8)'
Too right there are. Oh, wait, deja-vu...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6814337&postcount=1623

But read further to understand how they are using their calculations - not as absolutes, but frameworks with which to understand the observed collapses
Dear me. The result from Eq(2) is used throughout. It's wrong. Will remain wrong. A much, much more accurate value is ~28m/s.

They estimated the final velocity
No. They used the model to determine it. It is an output of their model behaviour. It's wrong.

which may or may not be accurate
No. It's very inaccurate.

Nobody that I am aware of knows that figure for certain.
A very reasonable estimate, based on direct observation and data extraction from real-world video evidence is.... ~28m/s.

The 9/11 Forum guys use estimates based on the early descent velocities, where it is easy to measure.
Incorrect. It is determined by looking at over half the full descent, which stretches to long after the effective terminal velocity is reached.

Some of the calcs are mine. Some are from others. You might want to take note of this value provided by David Benson (co-author of BLGB)...

David Benson @ The911Forum said:
About 28.8 m/s for the advance of the crushing front (material speed is necessarily less) but already at 3.76+ seconds the crushing front is advancing at 28.5 m/s.
.

alienentity said:
Again, their calculations form a basis for the theories, they are not in themselves 'proof' of actual sonic booms, or of air velocities in excess of the speed of sound. There are limitations, y'know ;)
That's great. It would be pretty silly for them to then apply observations to the real world, yeah ? (Hint: Limiting case)

Sure thing. These two videos are fairly good audio, where there are pulsating 'booms'. It is plausible that these sounds were partly caused by escaping air pulses, I really don't know.

Oh you didn't just post that video did you ?

:) :)

Question for you. Is the audio in that video authentic, or not ?

ROFL.

In the first one, I think the levels have been altered to accentuate the pulses, but they can also be heard on other examples (not as clearly).
Er, try again.

Have a nice day.
 
Nonsense. I'll quote the whole thing if it makes folk read the damn thing.



Have a nice day.

Those two things from your post make sense and are lucid. The rest of it is standard denial. Whatever.

You still haven't comprehended their statement (which is right there for you to read) 'All these complex interstory interactions must cause rapid and large random fluctuations of internal air pressure and exiting air velocity'

Note the words 'random' and 'fluctuations'. This is what is relevant to the peak pressures, not simply the basic framework.

You use estimates, they use estimates. Nobody knows for certain. So you don't know, and neither do I.

Regarding the youtube videos, I see you've dived back into the denial hidey-hole. Oh well, you did ask for evidence, not surprising you'd run away when it's presented to you in good faith.

Many people reported loud booms, Femr2. I think there is merit to the notion that some of the sounds were in fact sonic booms. You have not even come remotely close to disproving this idea, nor will you be able to - it remains a reasonable possibility to be considered.

Can't imagine what you are hoping to achieve with all these obsessions about NIST and Bazant. No idea.
 
Look, if you wish to make an arse out of yourself, go ahead.
I'm not.

Have you done any research into what kinds of sonic booms are possible? I doubt it.
You doubt right. Research types of sonic boom ? ROFL.

If you had, you'd realize that the spl's depend on a number of factors, it's not a 'one-size-fits-all' solution. Quick quote for you 'The power, or volume, of the shock wave is dependent on the quantity of air that is being accelerated,'
ROFL. Straight out of the wikipedia article, your first and only port of call. At least re-word that kind of thing when you're trying to sound knowledgeable eh ;)

Do I need to continue to demonstrate that your assumptions are fairly juvenile?
I've been ROFL'ing almost constantly today, however...

ROFL.

Howabout you read a bit further on in BLGB...
BGLB said:
(supersonic speeds are virtually impossible since the venting would require an orifice shaped similarly to a convergent-divergent nozzle)
.

What do you really know about the subject?
Enough :) (I spared you a little more embarrassment by not highlighting that your waxing lyrical about bullwhips and bullets is also straight out of the wiki entry, oh, oops...)

Have a nice day.
 
femr,

Your replies have been a sad, pathetic joke for some time now. No reason to expect anything different now.

Another whole "waste of bandwidth", providing no answer.

The reason is obvious: You have no answer. And these pathetic offerings are the best you can do.

Why don't you put all this down, go out & get a job & try to contribute to society in some fashion. Instead of sitting on a bunch of twoofer blog sites 24/7?



No, I asked you...

"Surely you already know the answers to these questions ?"

you replied...

"Yup."
No, femr, I said:

Yup.

Didn't expect an answer.

Never mind. I ain't got the time for your juvenile games.

Quote mining tools: sharp & at the ready.
Reading comprehension: Inoperative. No repair expected.


… cannot therefore have a clue about any of the basis of the ROOSD study …

… in the ROOSD thread ...

… How embarrasing.

Not embarrassing in the slightest.

There is a large & steaming pile of crackpot theories, offered up by a bunch of incompetent fools, that I don't keep up with.

I could not possibly tell you the latest developments in:

Bermuda Triangle
JFK assassination conspiracy
Alien Abductions
etc. etc. etc.

It's a long & undistinguished line up.
Get at the end.

Your ROOSD is simple a late bit of claptrap, constructed by a bunch of fools.

And it's not worth my time.

Neither are the authors. As evidenced by your answers here.


It's not smoke...

Way to focus on the inconsequential.

"The dark, gaseous "smoky-looking" stuff that is not smoke, but rather debris-laden air."

Read the ROOSD study.

I've asked 3 times now if that one page that I cited over at the 911 forum is the "ROOSD study". No answer.

I've asked 3 times now who are the authors of that study: no answer.

I've asked 3 times now if the replies below it are the authors' concept of a "peer review": no answer.

The crush fronts traverse inside the perimeter, leaving the perimeter destruction trilaing far behind.

THAT'S your "ROOSD" story??

:dl: :dl: :dl:

Sure thing.

Do you know what the tensile strength of a 3/4" mild steel bolt is? You had about 120 of them stretched across each floor, tying the exterior columns to the cables tied to the trusses. They failed in tension.

Do you know what the shear strength of same sized bolt is? You had about 60 of those tying each truss to its truss seat. Those failed in shear.

Tell me again how a 200' wide by 6 story tall wall of free standing 14" x 14" x 1/4" thick box columns are going to continue standing serenely while one entire floor's worth of those bolts are all jerked, from one side, to failure.

When they are famously "pulling" a free-standing wall of a building to failure with cables, do you think that they need to use that many bolts?
___

Ever seen a bulldozer plow its way thru a rocky field? That is, in essence, what the upper block is doing to the lower block.

Ever notice how the material being plowed does not form a perfectly straight line, equal in width to the bulldozer's blade? But rather builds up on each side of the blade & is shoved sideways as the dozer cuts a swath.

You're claiming that the upper block, plowing its way thru the lower structure, created a front end that matched perfectly the inside dimensions of the peripheral wall???

:dl:

And magically sheared all the internal floors perfectly from outer columns ??

:dl: :dl:

And left a massively unstable external wall standing in place???

:dl: :dl: :dl:

And it wasn't until the crush front had long since passed by, with the high pressure front IN ADVANCE of it, that the outer walls suddenly threw themselves in all direction??

:dl: :dl: :dl: :dl:

Or perhaps it was late-firing nanothermite that threw the external columns hundreds of feet …?

THAT's your "ROOSD theory" …?

___

I'll ask again… what evidence do you have that proves to you that the ejected material that you note is the crush front & not the result of the completely expected and KNOWN high pressure wave that precedes the crush front.

From all the dancing, "nothing" seems to be the correct answer.
 
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Regarding the youtube videos, I see you've dived back into the denial hidey-hole. Oh well, you did ask for evidence, not surprising you'd run away when it's presented to you in good faith.
I suggest you have a word with someone you trust.

Audio in your video is widely stated as being faked.

Have a nice day.
 
I suggest you have a word with someone you trust.

Audio in your video is widely stated as being faked.

Have a nice day.

Citation or drop it. Thx. I've got the original as well, the pulses are still there. You don't think I double-checked?

Chandler did exactly the same thing on his WTC 7 video - cranked up the relevant frequencies to enhance the sound. Does it sound like a high explosive?
Nope.

And you're conveniently forgetting (wow, must be nice to have such a selective memory..) the eyewitnesses who described all the explosions.

Or do you also deny they heard any? This just gets better and better..LOL
 
You're claiming that the upper block, plowing its way thru the lower structure, created a front end that matched perfectly the inside dimensions of the peripheral wall???
No Tom. R. O. O. S. D.

Runaway. Open Office Space. Destruction.

OOS... The flooring external to the core region.

The weakest link in the chain.

Call it the *pancake theory* if you are struggling so badly.

And magically sheared all the internal floors perfectly from outer columns ??
No Tom. Multiple regional behaviours. SW Crush front was highlighted.

And left a massively unstable external wall standing in place???
In places, absolutely, with a trailing fragmented upper-block thrown in the pot.

And it wasn't until the crush front had long since passed by, with the high pressure front IN ADVANCE of it, that the outer walls suddenly threw themselves in all direction??
No Tom. Multiple crush fronts. Multiple trailing masses, including the hat truss and wotnot. Peeling perimeter sections hinged much lower on the facade.

I've not used this before...

:dl:

Tom, stop. You are digging a hole. Don't do it to yourself.

You are illustrating vividly how very little you know of the actual descent behaviour.

Have a nice day.
 

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