Merged Applicability of Bazant's model to the real world

And I do believe that you just provided (nearly) conclusive proof that your argument is completely wrong. And that mine is right.
What a surprise. I'll await the ridiculously pedantic semantic nit-pick with anticipation, at some point, once (you think) all your recent assertions have been forgotten ;)

I have zero idea whether you guys have come to the following conclusion or not.
(looking into crystal ball) I sense waste products from the posterior of a bovine creature :) I rekn you might be getting around to actually reading the information you were provided with a while back, but you'll never admit to it, sooooo....

As difficult as it may be for femr to realize, I don't follow the nonsense of a bunch of stealth and not-so-stealth truthers at the911forum.
You don't view site content, right...

I see no evidence there of unbiased debate.
Oh. How can you do that without viewing site content ? ;)

I never have.
And over a period of time.

Coool.

It seems to me to be certain (but it's new to me, so I'll only say "highly probable")
Am I going to see you FINALLY having a look at some video evidence and putting forth an interpretation ? Surely not...

that the tops of a line of external columns that emerge from the debris could at the end of that gif represent a giant continuous wall of external columns that are STILL ATTACHED to the tower at their lower boundary.
Amazing ! Yes, you're probably right.

For additional in-depth details, see the perimeter peeling study by MT that you have repeatedly been encouraged to read.

Amazing new discoverey Tom ! Oh, wait...
Peeling perimeter sections hinged much lower on the facade.

Not long ago in this very thread Tom. You even quoted the damn thing.

I'd suggest that piece hinged near the lower mechanical region, though I'd need to go back to previous analysis to be sure.

There are several pieces of evidence in the video that point in this direction.
No excrement sherlock. Video. Evidence. It's well useful ;)

And one, the vertical velocity, that seems conclusive.
The clear hinge-based motion being another :rolleyes:

If this is so, it does nothing to suggest that these columns peeled away from the face AFTER the crush front passed. In fact, the go a long way to proving the opposite.
Then you need to continue your new-found eye-opening journey into video evidence analysis.

The upper end of that perimeter section is ejected upon impact with the descending tilted *upper block*. Keyword for you... wedge ;)

There is nothing in this clip that pertains to, in the slightest way, my original question to MT.
You asked TWO questions Tom.

Which both he & femr have resolutely ignored
'You lie", said femr2...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6822890&postcount=1848

You're losing your touch.
 
I don't know if you realize that what is under question is not the perimeter peeling, but the lowest ejections being the crush front.
Incorrect. Two questions were posed. The video clip answers one.
OK, let me restate.

I don't know if you realize that what I question is not the perimeter peeling, but the lowest ejections being the crush front.

"Two" questions?

What questions?

If you mean this one:
And it wasn't until the crush front had long since passed by, with the high pressure front IN ADVANCE of it, that the outer walls suddenly threw themselves in all direction??

:dl: :dl: :dl: :dl:
then I have to say that the highlighted word makes a difference. It was not alone. It didn't mean "And [you believe] it wasn't..." separately from the rest, not in my understanding, though tfk can make that clear himself if he wants. I read it as a whole cause-consequence chain.
 
"Two" questions?
Yes.

Stated as such by tfk on numerous occasions.

I posted a link to a response from MT for t'other a couple of posts ago, and have already indicated to ozeco41 that I'll gather additional AV resource for the other question, pretty ridiculous though it is.

Are you channeling tfk's penchant for the pedantic ?
 
OK, let me restate.

I don't know if you realize that what I question is not the perimeter peeling, but the lowest ejections being the crush front.

"Two" questions?

What questions?

If you mean this one:

then I have to say that the highlighted word makes a difference. It was not alone. It didn't mean "And [you believe] it wasn't..." separately from the rest, not in my understanding, though tfk can make that clear himself if he wants. I read it as a whole cause-consequence chain.

Yes.

I'd also like to know how "ROOSD" is responsible for perimeter peeling and simultaneously causing lateral ejections several floors below.
 
Yes.

Stated as such by tfk on numerous occasions.
Oh wait.

Do you mean this?

"My explanation for the ability of the external wall to remain standing while the collapse front passes it by, inside the building, is ..."

How does "the perimeter peeled FAR behind the crush ejection front" answer that question?

Or, if that was not it, can you cite the question?
 
oz,

I drafted a reply to your recent lengthy post. It took me 1600 words in draft form. Mostly a critique of your debating tactics. I don't think members would appreciate it if posted here so I won't post the lengthy reply.

Let's not bother the others. Why don't you PM me.

The On Topic central technical issues are:
a) You have agreed that most of the top block fell inside the perimeter columns of the lower tower. That agreement disposes of one of the main points of your multiple dogs ridicule post which started the discussion. The others could just as easily be dropped.

Apparently, I've put a burr under your saddle. Although "why", I cannot fathom.

(with one possible explanation …)

I wrote clearly that "whether most of the top block fell inside or not" is utterly irrelevant to the difference of opinion that I was having with femr.

Why do you bring that up again?

The other issues do, in fact, pertain to that difference of opinion. Which relates to the question of "is it likely, or possible, that the crush front brought down the floors of the while leaving the external walls standing?"

Do you think that the ejections shown in femr's gif really show the collapse front? Or do you think that they may be over pressures blowing out the windows?

Why, in either case?

b) You continue your strawman claim about the top block "shrinking" which no-one had proposed: ...strawman AND a false attribution of that strawman to me since it is not the only or the viable option. Therefore that claim is a dead end.

Cripes, oz. Substitute "got smaller" for "shrinking". Nobody suggested that the steel beams shortened.

I didn't attribute anything to you, by the way. I ASKED you what you thought of the situation. And this appears to be your first direct response.

Other than several "some debunkers here" comments...

So please feel free to address the real issue. Do you think that there is any viable mechanism for the upper block (as a unit, as a fractured piece, as rubble, whatever) fit inside the lower block, shearing the floors away, while leaving the outside wall still standing vertically.

As shown in that gif that femr posted.

Would you care to give a comment about that "Gaussian density profile" question that I posed earlier. Look at it from an engineering perspective & discuss what its implications are for the topic at hand?

Let me know if you want more.

Yeah, one last thing.

What do you think really happened on 9/11.

Big picture.
 
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Oh wait.

Do you mean...
Again, I have pointed you to a related answer by MT and indicated I'll be gathering some AV resource for that question soon.

If you are not able to understand that simple sentence, that is not my problem.

Have a nice day.
 
femr,

"… blah, blah, blah, farken blah…"

You've spent the entire last two days on this thread very explicitly, very resolutely saying nothing.

You could have said "this video shows the hinging motion of an intact outer wall".

You did not.

Your video speaks not one single word about the issue that started all this: "What argument do you have that those ejecta represented the collapse wave & not overpressures."

So this video is utterly irrelevant to the issue that started this whole cluster-jerk.

You've had your chance to address the issue. You chose not to. I'm sick of your tired, tired routine.

Once again, you've brought in meaningless crap, left out all dialog that might have cleared things up, and gone on this sort of knickers in a bunch hissy fit.

You intentionally say nothin' bout nothin'.

It's your style.

It's your forte.

No wonder you've spent 9 bloody years & nothing to show.

Except the delusion that nobody can tell you're a truther.

Cheers,

I'm not wasting another day on this crappola.
 
Again, I have pointed you to a related answer by MT and indicated I'll be gathering some AV resource for that question soon.

If you are not able to understand that simple sentence, that is not my problem.
Rewinding, and trying again. Let's see if this time I get it right:

I don't know if you realize that what is under question is not the perimeter peeling, but the lowest ejections being the crush front.
Incorrect. Two questions were posed. The video clip answers one.
Can you please provide a citation for the question that the video clip answers?

It's you who is claiming that there was a question answered by that video clip. I just want to know what question.
 
Here's a crazy notion: Ask and answer questions using words. I'm imagining femr2 trying to testify in a court, holding up his iPhone with video instead of answering questions. I object! Nonresponsive!
 
Can you please provide a citation for the question that the video clip answers?
Jebus. If you insist...

tfk-1626 said:
Please explain why, if this is collapse progression, there appears to be an un-collapsed corner of the building (vertical light streak = chamfered corner of the building) that remains standing for many floors after collapse wave has passed by.
tfk-1637 said:
2. If you assert that the emitted smoke is the collapse front, why does it appear that the chamfered corner of the building is still in place several floors above the "collapse front"?
Tell me again how a 200' wide by 6 story tall wall of free standing 14" x 14" x 1/4" thick box columns are going to continue standing serenely while one entire floor's worth of those bolts are all jerked, from one side, to failure.

When they are famously "pulling" a free-standing wall of a building to failure with cables, do you think that they need to use that many bolts?
___

Ever seen a bulldozer plow its way thru a rocky field? That is, in essence, what the upper block is doing to the lower block.

Ever notice how the material being plowed does not form a perfectly straight line, equal in width to the bulldozer's blade? But rather builds up on each side of the blade & is shoved sideways as the dozer cuts a swath.

You're claiming that the upper block, plowing its way thru the lower structure, created a front end that matched perfectly the inside dimensions of the peripheral wall???

:dl:

And magically sheared all the internal floors perfectly from outer columns ??

:dl: :dl:

And left a massively unstable external wall standing in place???

:dl: :dl: :dl:

And it wasn't until the crush front had long since passed by, with the high pressure front IN ADVANCE of it, that the outer walls suddenly threw themselves in all direction??

:dl: :dl: :dl: :dl:

Or perhaps it was late-firing nanothermite that threw the external columns hundreds of feet …?
(Classic one that ;) not to be forgotten)

Oh, and your reply...
pgimeno said:
You have a point here. One thing that that study can't explain is why the outer columns didn't bend inwards as the floors fell. Your explanation that it's the pressure front makes much more sense to me.
Coool.

Onwards...
tfk-1725 said:
How do you explain the ability to pull free from a 14" thin, 200' wide, 80' tall, unsupported wall of bolted together steel columns about 180 bolts with a combined load carrying capacity of around (20,000 x 120 + 60 x 7500 =) almost 3 million pounds? With nary a hint of motion in that enormously tall, wide unsupported wall?

Remember, a subset of those very same bolts pulled those very same columns inward about 5 feet without breaking earlier. And that is when they were hot and weak. Now they are cold & strong, and yet suffer a DUCTILE fracture without any indication of deflecting the outer wall in the process.

I've seen video of similar large structures fail before. The fluctuations, the dynamics are amazing. I suspect that, if you modeled one of those walls, got rid of most of the lateral support & pulled say 3 adjacent trusses to failure within say 50 - 100 msec, the entire wall would oscillate like a tympani.

And yet you claim that the collapse wave has stripped all the trusses free (30 trusses on a side?) with no external indication of any inward load.

Amazing...
tfk-1783 said:
The ONLY reply that I'm interested from you is a link to your sentences that start:

...

"My explanation for the ability of the external wall to remain standing while the collapse front passes it by, inside the building, is ..."
(Repeated numerous times, clearly spam, yet not actioned by mods. Ho hum)

tfk-1786 said:
I disagree with the contention that somehow the crushing occurred within the building, leaving (even temporarily) a vertical wall or shell to collapse later.

If you (or anyone else) has any evidence of this happening, I'm all ears.

If your evidence holds up, I'll freely admit that I was wrong & change my mind.
(Out with it Tom)
 
Yes - a very simple and effective plan. Then two of the buildings fell down - something which caught the engineering profession world wide by surprise. the profession learned. The situation somewhat analogous to the Tacoma Narrows bridge event. It has been said that doctors bury their mistakes whilst we engineers make them in full public view... :) The Westgate Bridge in Melbourne was one of our local ones - although it was a balls up not a natural phenomenon. http://www.westgatebridge.org/collapse.html :o
Yes. Likewise a few 'debunkers'. Yes, I can discern those who have substance to offer from those who don't.

I have not the slightest difficulty accepting a true statement as true whoever makes it. I have no need to make false accusations or insult people simply because they are labelled as truthers.
No, the collapse was no surprise; the design was for an imapct at 180 mph, 187 pounds of TNT in kinetic energy, and the impacts on 911 were 7 and 11 times greater in Kinetic energy. Instead of a smashed shell, and plane parts falling on the ground we have 6 core columns destoryed, and 10 core columns delstroyed. 10,000 gallons of fuel on multiple floors, acres of fires, with insulation desgoryed. The collapse was expected after you study the facts, something the inside job guys, the guys giving a pass to terrorists can't comprehend. They study the collapse front of wallboard, and measure the speed. Study a wave propagation as the floors failing accerlate; like watching blind men study an elephant.

The WTC towers collapse was expected, fire fighters were evaucating people in case of collapse, local or global. There is no surprise for those who can comprehend fire science, and basic engineering. What we have is apeasing a few fringe inside job truth movement guys who have to blame 911 on the government, or unknown master power, the puppetmaster, a fantasy.

No, it is expected for buildings fail in fire, it is a known fact, the WTC collapse is not like the Tacoma Narrows bridge event. Not even close. The terrorists cheated, they crashed at high speed, bringing more energy in the impact than the previous 93 bomb. Then we have 315 tons on heat energy in each jet fuel fire. Then the office contents beat that. There is only surprise when we lack the facts. It has been 9 years and as you appease people making up failed analysis, and still think the WTC collapse is a surprise; After 9 years. Are you the closet inside job truther, on the fence truther, surprise by fire science and engineering.

Goal free analysis, the stuff of failure. I don't have to set a goal, I understand why the WTC collapsed, and I understand why the local collapse precipitated a global collapse. Study of the collapse itself is a waste of time. We already know what caused the collapse, timing the wave of wallboard falling at 29 m/s is not going to help back in the inside job for 911 truth. The best part of watching the fringe truthers being appeasedd by you, is their work is nonsnese, it is comedy, not a thing to do with engineer as they plot the speed of dust, post contridictions to what they say, and you let them skate on, as if they had somehing.

Better part, it doesn't take an engineering degree, like my undergrad and masters, to understand these guys are frauds, they have one goal to make up junk ideas to support their inside job fantasy.

If you were surprised the WTC towers collapsed after you studies the event, the aircraft speed, the 10,000 gallons of fuel, the impact dislodging insulation, then you too need a refund of your engineering degree, because exposing these frauds, can be done with a grade school education.

No substance is needed to when there is no substance, no goal, no thesis, no purpose in the nonsense you appease by acting as if they had substance and goal. I know their goal is backing in their inside job demolition fraud, this is all they have, as they make up studies, non-studies, and goal free nonsense.

The attacks on Bazant's work are in your no substance to offer category. It shows these few inside job truth engineers can't comprehend models, so they attack. But go ahead post nonsense, act as if you were surprised the WTC towers collapsed due to your lack of knowledge, and pretend these guys have something of substance. Gee, the sun came up, is that something of substance? Wow, the wallboard is timed falling at 28 m/s, gee, did they try modeling why they measure a wave, instead of collapsing floors, shown clearly in people's videos accelerating. Did they fail to hear the floors collapsing at an increasing rate. No, they use the MARK 1 eye ball on the low resolution video and declare, perimeter peeling, and other nonsense to keep you and them on the fantasy free-fall into truther land.

The engineering world was not surprised by the collapse. Terrorists flew planes at high speed into the WTC complex, 7 and 11 times past the design point for aircraft impacts. Fire did it, and anyone who studies fire science would not be surprised the towers collapsed. I did not know you lacked that knowledge and were surprised. But this was a terrorists attack, not like Tacoma Narrows bridge. Not even close.

Truthers can't comprehend models, and when you see them use the 1D card, it proves they are frauds. Balsamo uses the same card because he can't figure out math and models, so do these guys, who only have the goal to prove their inside job fantasy. You are posting to an array of paranoid conspiracy theorists, each with their own unique traits and failed fantasy. I guess you being surprised fire destroyed the WTC complex might explain why you think these frauds have something as they study post initiation collapse fo no reason save backing in inside job fake evidence.

Fact is fire destroys buildings, I have only been an engineer since 1974, and I have never seen this much BS, this much nonsense. There is no need to debate with people who have delusions as bad as these guys. Bazant's model is applicable to the real world, and the off topic 28 m/s wallboard collapse front will not expose the inside job in their fantasy world of paranoid conspiracy theories. They have the inside job demolition delusion, I did not suspect you did too. I thought you were teasing them, as they post nonsense, I thought you were making fun of them; I had no idea you were seriously responding to their goal free nonsense.

They never answer questions because their stuff is nonsense. How does the 28 m/s wallboard and dust crush front terminal velocity fit with Bazant's model? it does not, they have nothing to offer but fantasy of an inside job

You were surprised? now that makes sense now
 
You've spent the entire last two days on this thread very explicitly, very resolutely saying nothing.
Nonsense.

You could have said "this video shows the hinging motion of an intact outer wall".

You did not.
A quote, from me, 28th January 2011...
Peeling perimeter sections hinged much lower on the facade.
Hmmm.

you've brought in meaningless crap
See rather long list of assertions and questions, by you, relating to crush front leaving perimeter standing, in my previous post.

and gone on this sort of knickers in a bunch hissy fit.
No hissy fits from me tfk. Grab a mirror though...

I'm not wasting another day on this crappola.
Again ? Oh dear, what a shame.

Have a nice day.
 
femr post 1911: "(Classic one that not to be forgotten)"

Yes, there are some classic quotable posts by TFK that should not be forgotten. It is a good thing our exchanges are written and recorded.

Nobody seems to set JREF debunking efforts backward quite like TFK.

He is a poster boy to demonstrate my claims that illusion dominates the "debate".
 
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Wow, the wallboard is timed falling at 28 m/s, gee, did they try modeling why they measure a wave, instead of collapsing floors, shown clearly in people's videos accelerating. Did they fail to hear the floors collapsing at an increasing rate. No, they use the MARK 1 eye ball on the low resolution video
You seem to be under the impression that the crush front propogation rate was determined by tracing something falling.

Incorrect.

The rate was determined by tracing the lowest visible edge of the WTC1 West Face ejecta (SW Crush Front) as it traversed down the West face.

You also state "collapsing floors, shown clearly in people's videos accelerating.".

Please reference a piece of video footage you think supports that statement.
 
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Jebus. If you insist...
Let's see.


tfk-1626 said:
Please explain why, if this is collapse progression, there appears to be an un-collapsed corner of the building (vertical light streak = chamfered corner of the building) that remains standing for many floors after collapse wave has passed by.
A: "The perimeter peeled far behind the crush front".

No, that's not the required explanation.

tfk-1637 said:
2. If you assert that the emitted smoke is the collapse front, why does it appear that the chamfered corner of the building is still in place several floors above the "collapse front"?
A: "The perimeter peeled far behind the crush front".

That is the only answer that seems to match the question, except that lacking any quantification, does not really provide an explanation.

Tell me again how a 200' wide by 6 story tall wall of free standing 14" x 14" x 1/4" thick box columns are going to continue standing serenely while one entire floor's worth of those bolts are all jerked, from one side, to failure.

When they are famously "pulling" a free-standing wall of a building to failure with cables, do you think that they need to use that many bolts?
___

Ever seen a bulldozer plow its way thru a rocky field? That is, in essence, what the upper block is doing to the lower block.

Ever notice how the material being plowed does not form a perfectly straight line, equal in width to the bulldozer's blade? But rather builds up on each side of the blade & is shoved sideways as the dozer cuts a swath.

You're claiming that the upper block, plowing its way thru the lower structure, created a front end that matched perfectly the inside dimensions of the peripheral wall???

:dl:

And magically sheared all the internal floors perfectly from outer columns ??

:dl: :dl:

And left a massively unstable external wall standing in place???

:dl: :dl: :dl:

And it wasn't until the crush front had long since passed by, with the high pressure front IN ADVANCE of it, that the outer walls suddenly threw themselves in all direction??

:dl: :dl: :dl: :dl:

Or perhaps it was late-firing nanothermite that threw the external columns hundreds of feet …?
A: "The perimeter peeled far behind the crush front".

:confused:

I asked about a specific one from them and got no response.

pgimeno said:
You have a point here. One thing that that study can't explain is why the outer columns didn't bend inwards as the floors fell. Your explanation that it's the pressure front makes much more sense to me.
A: "The perimeter peeled far behind the crush front".

That's not even a question :confused::confused:

[quote="tfk-1725]How do you explain the ability to pull free from a 14" thin, 200' wide, 80' tall, unsupported wall of bolted together steel columns about 180 bolts with a combined load carrying capacity of around (20,000 x 120 + 60 x 7500 =) almost 3 million pounds? With nary a hint of motion in that enormously tall, wide unsupported wall?
Remember, a subset of those very same bolts pulled those very same columns inward about 5 feet without breaking earlier. And that is when they were hot and weak. Now they are cold & strong, and yet suffer a DUCTILE fracture without any indication of deflecting the outer wall in the process.

I've seen video of similar large structures fail before. The fluctuations, the dynamics are amazing. I suspect that, if you modeled one of those walls, got rid of most of the lateral support & pulled say 3 adjacent trusses to failure within say 50 - 100 msec, the entire wall would oscillate like a tympani.

And yet you claim that the collapse wave has stripped all the trusses free (30 trusses on a side?) with no external indication of any inward load.

Amazing... [/quote]
A: "The perimeter peeled far behind the crush front".

No, that doesn't answer the only question (that I have highlighted) in that quote.

tfk-1783 said:
The ONLY reply that I'm interested from you is a link to your sentences that start:

...

"My explanation for the ability of the external wall to remain standing while the collapse front passes it by, inside the building, is ..."
A: "The perimeter peeled far behind the crush front".

That is an answer how, exactly? I asked about that explicitly, not believing that that was what the video answered.

tfk-1786 said:
I disagree with the contention that somehow the crushing occurred within the building, leaving (even temporarily) a vertical wall or shell to collapse later.

If you (or anyone else) has any evidence of this happening, I'm all ears.

If your evidence holds up, I'll freely admit that I was wrong & change my mind.
Not even a question, yet,

A: "The perimeter peeled far behind the crush front".

:confused::confused::confused:


Ok, now seriously. Can you please provide a citation for the question that the video clip answers?
 
A question I'd like to ask. Why wouldn't a cloud of smoke, dust and small debris ride a pressure wave well in front of the collapse zone?


Just asking.
 
ROFL. You have definitely inherited the tfk certified penchant for the pedantic post.

Two things tfk couldn't believe could possibly be factual, one of them being perimeter remaining standing after crush front has passed by. He was wrong. Video evidence provided.

For t'other one, clarification of ejecta streams denoting crush front position...

Yet again, I have pointed you to a related answer by MT and indicated I'll be gathering some AV resource for t'other question soon.

If you are not able to understand that simple sentence, that is not my problem.

Have a nice day.
 
femr post 1911: "(Classic one that not to be forgotten)"

Yes, there are some classic quotable posts by TFK that should not be forgotten. It is a good thing our exchanges are written and recorded.

Nobody seems to set JREF debunking efforts backward quite like TFK.

He is a poster boy to demonstrate my claims that illusion dominates the "debate".

:id: :id: :id: :id: :id: :id:
 
A question I'd like to ask. Why wouldn't a cloud of smoke, dust and small debris ride a pressure wave well in front of the collapse zone?


Just asking.
Am sure there's possibly up to a storey of leading debris, however this is the relevant ejecta stream...

http://femr2.ucoz.com/_ph/6/8480632.png
http://femr2.ucoz.com/_ph/6/2/91907102.gif
http://femr2.ucoz.com/_ph/6/2/246506162.gif http://femr2.ucoz.com/_ph/6/2/454796303.gif

Focus on point A on the West side of the tower. (Not falling debris as beachnut seems to be getting confused about)

As I've said a few times above, I'm gathering a few resources together to clarify the visual evidence, so if these don't clarify things for you please indicate why and I'll address such, probably via annotations.

Edited by LashL: 
Removed repetitive images. Do not post the same images over and over again.
 
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