Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Fine]

That Guede would not have panicked after fatally injuring Meredith is simply your own opinion. To me, it seems at least as likely that he would have reacted in that way as that he would have recognized he'd just fatally wounded someone but decided to continue with the sexual assault regardless, even stopping to arrange the scene beforehand. If Amanda and Raffaele's backgrounds are relevant, then Guede's history has to be equally considered, and he had no real prior history of violence or sexual assault. In this case he entered the house as a petty thief, looking for rent money. That he would've been shocked at the sudden realization he'd probably just killed someone is hardly out of the question, IMO. As I said before, there seems no plausible explanation for the position of the towels, other than that stated by Guede. And if they had been used in an attempt to stop the bleeding, I see no reason it would be so terribly unlikely to find them blood-soaked and left next to or near her body.

As regards the pillow, this seems quite important since Massei's argument that this was used to 'facilitate the sexual assault' seems the only real evidence the sexual assault occurred after the stabbing. I found this argument a bit unconvincing from the start: it wouldn't be an easy task to lift Meredith's lower body to deliberately place the pillow there, and I can't see that it would make a manual assault so very much easier. If Guede were so carried away that he sexually assaulted her after fatally stabbing her, I think he would just have done it, not stopped to arrange the scene first.

I think that the pillow - together with the quilt and everything that had been on the bed - may have already been on the floor as a result of the struggle that happened near the bed. The knife print that was probably made shortly after the stabbing (the knife having still been bloody enough to make a recognizable print) was made on the bed sheet, not on the duvet, meaning the duvet was not on the bed at this stage. And as el buscador noted, there are multiple shoe prints on the pillow (one in the middle of it) which are quite difficult to explain if Guede picked up the pillow from the bed and placed it deliberately beneath Meredith. On the other hand, they are easy to explain if the pillow was already on the floor.

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I wonder, katy_did, whether you, and Massei, are guilty of confirmation bias in describing where the pillow was found under Meredith's body. You say it was found under her lower body and Massei says it was found under her hips. How do we reconcile that with this photograph of where the pillow was found..........

It appears to me that the pillow was found under her shoulders.

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[Draca]

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It appears to me that the pillow was found under her shoulders.

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Fine,

Her head was found resting on the boot. Her neck and shoulders would have been where the pool of blood is in front of the boot.

 

[Fine]

Fine,

Her head was found resting on the boot. Her neck and shoulders would have been where the pool of blood is in front of the boot.

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Yes, Draca, her head resting on the boot nearest to the camera, the one lying flat. Here's another photo of the pillow, as found..........

Given that the pool of blood was under Meredith's neck, how could the pillow have been under her hips?

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[Justinian2]

Aren't those pictures 'hotlinks' and a violation of member rules?

There is a way to upload them to your album and then linking to them from there.

I believe that the picture above is legal and not a hot link since it is at forums.randi.org

 

[Kaosium]

I don't believe the independent experts are tasked with finding additional evidence but rather reviewing and re-testing (where that can be done) what was done on the knife and bra clasp. If there are additional areas they wish to venture I see it as part of the legal procedure to request this. Court procedures are in place largely to protect the rights of the accused.

It certainly looks like you're correct about them needing the court's permission, being as that's how it turned out, and I agree it is the sort of thing that would typically serve to protect the rights of the accused, most of whom wouldn't want any fishing expeditions into the evidence in most cases. I do think the reactions of both parties suggestive though, as in most cases it would seem it would benefit the prosecution as one can always find more evidence, but generally not less.

They are independent in that they are neither advocates of the prosecution or the defense but appointed by the Court. As such, they have to follow procedures set by the Court (as boring and frustrating as those at times can be).

There could be reasons for objections to dismantling, or testing evidence (such as the knife or testing the stain on the pillow). Does dismantling/testing interfere with evidence already obtained (Amanda's DNA on the knife handle, Rudy's handprint on the pillow)? Or is it simply one has to have a record of everything done, a chain of events so to speak. I don't know the answer to what I have asked but there is usually a reason for why things are or aren't done in a Court proceeding.

This could be, and frankly as to the particulars I don't think it matters much, as I believe there's such a plethora of reasons to reject that knife as the 'murder weapon' that one more is not needed. I'm sure the prosecution has its reasons to protest it, but I would think any technical reason would be trumped by the opportunity to find basically anything to corroborate that dubious DNA sample.

 

[Kaosium]

Halides1

I have said in further comments that if someone finds evidence or a translation of the appeal submissions that either defence teams requested that the knife should be dismantled I would accept this evidence. I have concluded that given the reactions to Dr Conti's request that the prosecution objection is a technical one along the lines I have previously stated.

I am merely providing what I believe to be a reasonable explanation, rather than being an apologist for the prosecution I am a critic of the defence teams.

I appreciate it, you brought to my attention something I hadn't realized, that it wasn't actually a part of the appeal. However it has occurred to me that I believe I have seen Halides1 and others post a number of times regarding the value of such a procedure, which suggests that they thought of something the defense team didn't, but the Italian independent experts did end up requesting. Thus in a sense you have both advanced the same criticism of the defense.

 

[el buscador]

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Yes, Draca, her head resting on the boot nearest to the camera, the one lying flat. Here's another photo of the pillow, as found..........

[qimg]http://perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image.php?mode=medium&album_id=21&image_id=1592[/qimg]

Given that the pool of blood was under Meredith's neck, how could the pillow have been under her hips?

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Does the pillow travel around the room? I have seen a photo of the closet with the doors off and a pillow inside that looks like it has blood stains. There is also a green towel or a green rag wadded up on the pillow. I don't know the date of the photo and can't find it now but it is confusing.

 

[Draca]

_______________________--
Yes, Draca, her head resting on the boot nearest to the camera, the one lying flat. Here's another photo of the pillow, as found..........

Given that the pool of blood was under Meredith's neck, how could the pillow have been under her hips?

MK has already been removed. The pillow may not be exactly where it was originally. It's hard to picture the exact postiton also.

Charlie do you have info on this?

 

[Draca]

Does the pillow travel around the room? I have seen a photo of the closet with the doors off and a pillow inside that looks like it has blood stains. There is also a green towel or a green rag wadded up on the pillow. I don't know the date of the photo and can't find it now but it is confusing.

The pillow in the closet photo would be from Dec. 18th.

 

[Brooktrout]

Dan O.
Would you be willing to take a close look at the photo's of the knife? I believe the dirty claim is a product of wishful thinking and one explanation could be the shadows or the reflection of the handle off the blade of the knife near the handle. In some of the photos, the dirty part seems to match the contour of the black handle, in my opinion. You have shown some expertise with this in the past is why I am asking.

Hi Rose, didn't Frank Sfarzo, whose claim this is, see the knife up close and personal? I assumed it was on this basis that he describes it as dirty, not on the photos, which are provided for our sake.

 

[Draca]

Halides1

I have said in further comments that if someone finds evidence or a translation of the appeal submissions that either defence teams requested that the knife should be dismantled I would accept this evidence. I have concluded that given the reactions to Dr Conti's request that the prosecution objection is a technical one along the lines I have previously stated.

I am merely providing what I believe to be a reasonable explanation, rather than being an apologist for the prosecution I am a critic of the defence teams.

The defense requested that the DNA used to CONVICT was given an independent analysis. If THAT DNA is thrown out so is the evidence. They have NO reason to request that the knife be taken apart. What would that prove anyway? If there is not blood or DNA under the handle it doesn't prove that the knife wasn't used, just that it didn't get under the handle. If the anaylsis comes back and rejects Stefanoni's results I could then see the prosecution at that point requesting testing for DNA under the knife handle in hopes of finding evidence (which they should have done anyway). I don't think this was a mistake by the defense at all. I also think they were right not to protest the knife handle being opened. They have confidence it isn't the weapon.

It is also not the defence's job to do the prosecution's job !!! What you are saying seems like once again they are guilty until poven innocent. Are you equally hard on the prosecution? Why didn't THEY test under the handle right away? Why did Stefanoni continue to test after receiving a 'too low' reading. She stopped testing on other things when she got that result ! How come they haven't turned over the electonic files and control tests?

The defense asked for independent analysis in the first trial. Why was it denied ???

How does Amanda's DNA on the handle exist if the knife tested negative for blood? Her DNA could not have been placed there during the attack.

 

[Chris C]

Is that the Meredith's blue jacket lying there in the blood. I thought it was found in the cloths basket. To me it appears to be lying right where the smeared blood is.

 

[Draca]

Is that the Meredith's blue jacket lying there in the blood. I thought it was found in the cloths basket. To me it appears to be lying right where the smeared blood is.

Chris,

When I mentioned the laundry hamper, I meant that is what it was pulled out of on Dec 18th. The forensic team didn't collect it until that date and deemed it appropriate to store it for safe keeping in the laundry hamper until then.

On Dec 18th a whitesuit starts digging through the laundry hamper, pulls it out, looks at it a second and then throws in the floor by the rug where you will see several photos of it. It isn't until later that one of them decides to collect it as evidence.

For **** sake ! This is the jacket MK was wearing when attacked and they treated it like this !

 

[Chris C]

Chris,

When I mentioned the laundry hamper, I meant that is what it was pulled out of on Dec 18th. The forensic team didn't collect it until that date and deemed it appropriate to store it for safe keeping in the laundry hamper until then.

On Dec 18th a whitesuit starts digging through the laundry hamper, pulls it out, looks at it a second and then throws in the floor by the rug where you will see several photos of it. It isn't until later that one of them decides to collect it as evidence.

For **** sake ! This is the jacket MK was wearing when attacked and they treated it like this !

Well 2 reasons I mention this.
1st being how do you not collect it? I had always assumed it was found in the cloths bag. Yet there it is, sitting in blood most likely underneath the victims body. Funny how so much attention was paid to the undergarments of MK and very little was paid to the outer garments. Atleast until they had no evidence.

2nd. being there are alot of claims that MK was wearing this when she was killed because of the blood around the collar of the coat. Yet from looking at that crappy picture, it appears the very spot, that has blood on the coat, is actually sitting in blood. So how do you determine the blood on the coat happened while she was wearing it, when the exact spot is sitting in blood.

I really don't see how they can view these people as professionals when they leave bloody clothes at the scene of the crime. I thought the boots where a single mistake and they just didn't see the jacket because it was in the clothes basket. Yet that picture shows it clearly sitting in the blood. I even double checked to make sure that was the coat. Plus it appears the pillow has been kicked over into the bloody area also.

 

[Dan O.]

Well 2 reasons I mention this.
1st being how do you not collect it? I had always assumed it was found in the cloths bag. Yet there it is, sitting in blood most likely underneath the victims body. Funny how so much attention was paid to the undergarments of MK and very little was paid to the outer garments. Atleast until they had no evidence.

It does make sense to pay more attention to the under garments since anyone may have come in contact with that jacket for innocent reasons. But the fact that ILE keeps going back to the scene until they get a hit greatly reduced the odds that Raffaele's DNA was eventually found.

 

[Chris C]

It does make sense to pay more attention to the under garments since anyone may have come in contact with that jacket for innocent reasons. But the fact that ILE keeps going back to the scene until they get a hit greatly reduced the odds that Raffaele's DNA was eventually found.

Yes I agree, yet you must have missed the part about very little being paid to the outer garments. Then again, they was only worried about testing for dna on the undergarments. You will notice their lack of initiative to test possible semen stains and claim that there is no way to determine when they was deposited on the pillow.

However, if their reasoning that the jacket could have had dna deposited on it innocently as the reason for not even bothering to collecit it, then could not the same be said about Knox's dna in the sink. After all we know Knox used that sink. I mean they let towels mildew, swept up evidence into a pile of dirt, tossed bloody boots under a bed and tossed a bloody jacket in a clothes bag, thats not counting their theories on the luminol prints and bloody bathmat. Its like a total disregard for collection standards and proof of evidence.

I mean seriously, they pointed a luminol print and said that print is made from blood and it belongs to knox. When you ask them for proof, there is none. Its just Knox's print because they pointed at it and said so.

They have shown utter lack of professionalism investigating this case.

The knife - crappy storage procedures, continued testing and disregarded standards until they got the result they wanted. Then stopped testing.
The clasp - crappy storage procedures, cherry picked dna results and then stopped testing rather than verify the results.

I find it sad that they never verified either of the results on the knife and the clasp. They have also refused to give up the evidence of those results.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
Greg Hampikian interview last night (starts about 19 minutes into the podcast).

http://www.mynorthwest.com/?nid=577&...10&n=Northwest




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I'm not impressed. The usual misinformation. The bra clasp was supposedly "kicked around" Meredith's room and Rudy's DNA was supposedly "all over the victim."

But with a couple new inventions, apparently to illustrate how Meredith's bedroom had been trashed by the cops. At the 25:10 elapsed time index in the interview, Hampikian "informs" us that Meredith's bed and closet had been removed from her bedroom, prior to collection of the bra clasp. (Huh?)


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I think he meant the mattress and the closet door.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

MK has already been removed. The pillow may not be exactly where it was originally. It's hard to picture the exact postiton also.

Charlie do you have info on this?

The pillow was all the way under her buttocks, but it was skewed and off center so it jutted out in the direction of the wardrobe.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Aren't those pictures 'hotlinks' and a violation of member rules?

There is a way to upload them to your album and then linking to them from there.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?pictureid=4269&albumid=648&dl=1296336386&thumb[/qimg]

I believe that the picture above is legal and not a hot link since it is at forums.randi.org

That picture shows the pillow in the same place it was when her body was present. Her body was positioned at a diagonal to the pillow, so that her buttocks covered the left side of it.

It definitely wasn't put there to stop her from bleeding to death.

 

[Dan O.]

The police_video_november_3_2007 at time 2:18:49 and again at time 2:19:39, shortly after Meredith's body has been removed, we see the pillow with the closest corner in the same position but the pillow is rotated about 30º counter clockwise.

ETA: At 2:24:42 the pillow has been lifted to reveal the bra clasp. The next view is 12:40:00 and the pillow has been repositioned. to where it is seen in the news clip.