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Merged Applicability of Bazant's model to the real world

Ye gads man. The video took about 10 minutes. The values sourced from documentation of an *industry standard apple* (yeah there is such a thing). SI units used otherwise.

The point in posting was...


For *an apple*, unless you include "the (highly chaotic) effects of wind" (and air resistance) you will not get "a decent approximation to the speed of the fall.".

The rest is irrelevant, but hey ho.

Have a nice day.

No. 4 significant digits is not an approximation, by any definition. But kudos on defining a 'standard apple' :)

I'm being serious. If you asked me for what the weather was supposed to be tomorrow, and I told you 5.1288 degrees C and wind out of WSW at exactly 241.88 degrees at 4.9754 knots with visibility of 410.55 meters, what would be your impression.

In plain English - what is the point of your false claims to precision, if not to impress the credulous?
 
I'll gather a few visual resources together, seeing as folk have stepped back in time and are questioning the existance of leading crush fronts. Bizarre, but hey.

Anyone would think that no-one has actually looked at any of the video :confused:

Ho hum. It'll take a while, and you'll probably spit feathers at the size of a few embedded GIFs, but hey ho. 2011. Decent bandwidth is a given.

Have a nice day.
 
What CD theory ?
...
I thought, since you hold Ross's paper as a technical paper, you were a CD theory guy. What, would you have Ross's paper labeled as technical if you were not a CD theory guy? Ross's paper is nonsense; wrong.

Are you like Balsamo, you offer no theory, you have no clue what happen on 911? You study the collapse with no goal, no purpose (study of the collapse itself offers nothing but how a building can fall due to gravity). Study of the collapse is worthless, unless you were interested in making more stairwells survive to save people, or making safe places during events that destroy building; like bombing, terrorist like on 911, etc. Sad to say engineers have already done this, and your study is super nonsense since you have no goal, no math, no engineering. When you set no goal, no purpose, you fail. Your 28 m/s, what ever it is, is funny if you think about it. It is based on nonsense, and the more you try to explain it, the more nonsensical it becomes. I can't wait for you to publish it, what ever it is you are doing, I fear the goal free nature, and your inability to tie it to anything but your own delusion and goal free attitude will keep it from impacting anything to do with 911. Good luck.

Any goals yet? Any conclusions? You have proved nothing to help stop the moronic conspiracy theories 911 truth pushes. You measured dust falling around the collapse, you measured it at 28 m/s. Good job. You made up names for what you measured. Cool.

Since you have no goal, you have nothing of value to reply to. If you had something worthwhile, I would be seen only in quotes, if at all.

What does your nonsense, your no theory, your no model, your 28 m/s target fixation on minutiae which makes no sense since it is goal free; what does your random stuff have to do with Bazant's model?

Do you know the WTC complex was not destroyed by CD, no thermite, no explosives? Like Bazant. You refute CD and know it is a lie made up by 911 truth? This one is easy, it is sort of yes or no. No CD, or yes on CD? Simple question even Bazant can get right. Can you? Was it fire, or explosives?

There is no need for you to present videos of the collapse with no goal. Goal free work is a waste of time, and you have wasted over 9 years to come up with, no theory, no goals, no conclusions. You have made zero progress.

How is the 28 m/s stuff related to Bazant's model, and 911 CTs? Do you have any thing, any goal here?
 
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beachnut said:
your CD theory
femr2 said:
What CD theory ?
I thought, since you hold Ross's paper as a technical paper, you were a CD theory guy.

You've been blathering on for about a YEAR about my-CD-theory this, and my-CD-theory that.

A hundred, two hundred instances ?

What theory are you referring to Beachnut ?

Or are you just delusional, making up lies with no goal ?
 
It's certainly confusing to me that after 24 hours you aren't able to articulate your idea of WTC collapse initiation, even after all your research and thought. Maybe my question was unclear, so let me rephrase it ...

What do you believe led to collapse initiation in WTC1,2+7?

It remains a total mystery. As I stated clearly, the causes of initation for all three buildings have not yet been identified. South wall failure for WTC1 does not seem to match observables.
 
I'll gather a few visual resources together, seeing as folk have stepped back in time and are questioning the existance of leading crush fronts. Bizarre, but hey.

Anyone would think that no-one has actually looked at any of the video :confused:

Ho hum. It'll take a while, and you'll probably spit feathers at the size of a few embedded GIFs, but hey ho. 2011. Decent bandwidth is a given.

Have a nice day.

My answer is "look". It is like nobody can identify a collapse front. You have great footage of propagation moving down the east and south sides of WTC2.

Very good footage of propagation fronts moving down the WTC1 NW corner and west face.

Just look.
 
femr,

What boggles me at the moment is tfk demanding an explanation of progressive collapse mechanics from yourself and I.

You are one confused puppy.

Are you illiterate as well as innumerate?

I am asking you:
tfk said:
The ONLY reply that I'm interested from you is a link to your sentences that start:

"The way that I distinguish the collapse front from a pressure wave is ..."

and

"My explanation for the ability of the external wall to remain standing while the collapse front passes it by, inside the building, is ..."

The is not one mention of "progressive collapse mechanisms" in any of that. I'm asking you about YOUR assertions from YOUR video clips.

By your repeated failure to answer, I'll accept your admission that you never answered my questions.

And that means that you were blatantly lying in this post above when you implied ("tfk, have you forgotten a couple of responses ?") that you HAD answered my questions.

ROFL.

I'm not here to pander to your whims tom...

And now, from this, your stated intention to never answer those questions, I'll accept that you HAVE no answer.

You're simply hoping this entire issue will go away.

Just like always, femr.

You evade.
You misdirect.
You refuse to answer direct questions.
And then you lie about the whole context of the interaction.

Nothing is new here.

How can the perimeter POSSIBLY survive for a bit after a crush front or two wafts-on by ?!!11!1

Right. Your incompetent concept of "an answer".
___

Let's see if you two geniuses can answer a simple question.

Assume that after the collapse begins and the upper block has fallen about 2 stories, there is a Gaussian distribution of mass density in the vertical direction in the crush zone. Highest mass density at some arbitrary height in the compacted debris, and tapering to "average density" of the intact towers above & below this.

With this distribution, there will be zones of free falling mass both above & below the highest density slug. (Higher density than the tower average, but lower than the maximum in the crush zone.)

Assume, in the first case, that the density of debris below the main slug IS NOT sufficient to cause collapse of the floors on which it falls.

What do the laws of conservation of momentum & conservation of energy say will happen to the density distribution over time? How does the debris density distribution evolve?

Now imagine that the density below the main slug IS sufficient to cause collapse of the floors on which it falls.

What do those laws say about the time evolution of the density distribution in this case? How is it different from the previous case?

What happens if you have a different (e.g., triangular, uniform, whatever) density profile?

You wanted questions about collapse propagation, smart guy, you got one.

I'll show, after you attempt to answer, that this question is DIRECTLY pertinent to the question of the likelihood of an "all internal ROOSD'.
 
This is an excellent little clip of the propagation front moving downh the east and south faces, WTC2:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Xenomorph911WTC?&MMN_position=314:314#p/u/64/RfI8GHtjJB8

Xenomorph again.

Can anyone recognize the collapse front? That is what the OOS process looks like before it is obscured by falling debris.

You can recognize the small "cotton-ball" pattern of ejections and the color is always a light grey.
 
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femr,



You are one confused puppy.

Are you illiterate as well as innumerate?

I am asking you:


The is not one mention of "progressive collapse mechanisms" in any of that. I'm asking you about YOUR assertions from YOUR video clips.

By your repeated failure to answer, I'll accept your admission that you never answered my questions.

And that means that you were blatantly lying in this post above when you implied ("tfk, have you forgotten a couple of responses ?") that you HAD answered my questions.



And now, from this, your stated intention to never answer those questions, I'll accept that you HAVE no answer.

You're simply hoping this entire issue will go away.

Just like always, femr.

You evade.
You misdirect.
You refuse to answer direct questions.
And then you lie about the whole context of the interaction.

Nothing is new here.



Right. Your incompetent concept of "an answer".
___

Let's see if you two geniuses can answer a simple question.

Assume that after the collapse begins and the upper block has fallen about 2 stories, there is a Gaussian distribution of mass density in the vertical direction in the crush zone. Highest mass density at some arbitrary height in the compacted debris, and tapering to "average density" of the intact towers above & below this.

With this distribution, there will be zones of free falling mass both above & below the highest density slug. (Higher density than the tower average, but lower than the maximum in the crush zone.)

Assume, in the first case, that the density of debris below the main slug IS NOT sufficient to cause collapse of the floors on which it falls.

What do the laws of conservation of momentum & conservation of energy say will happen to the density distribution over time? How does the debris density distribution evolve?

Now imagine that the density below the main slug IS sufficient to cause collapse of the floors on which it falls.

What do those laws say about the time evolution of the density distribution in this case? How is it different from the previous case?

What happens if you have a different (e.g., triangular, uniform, whatever) density profile?

You wanted questions about collapse propagation, smart guy, you got one.

I'll show, after you attempt to answer, that this question is DIRECTLY pertinent to the question of the likelihood of an "all internal ROOSD'.

Edited by jhunter1163: 
Edited for civility.
 
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You've been blathering on for about a YEAR about my-CD-theory this, and my-CD-theory that.

A hundred, two hundred instances ?

What theory are you referring to Beachnut ?

Or are you just delusional, making up lies with no goal ?

YouTube - WTC Demolition - WTC1 #2 you do have the CD theory, or is it a delusion?. Is this why you have to attack Bazant with your no goal 28 m/s non-theory stuff?

Theory? Looks more like a paranoid conspiracy theory kind of obsession.
YouTube - WTC Demolition - WTC2 Destruction Above Initiation oops, CD is your theory, or what do you call it? Hobby, failed delusion? What?

You have the delusions of CD, you post them on YouTube for all to see, and you have no goal. My goal was to split wood today, I have a month split, and part of Next years, my goal will be met, and the conclusion, I will save 534 dollars heating the house. That is what you lack, a clear goal, a possible thesis, and no ability to make conclusions. You prove it on YouTube, and you posted proof again.

YouTube - WTC Demolition - WTC2 Core Have you forgot you had the CD theory? Or what? Are too shy to stand up for your CD theory? Or unable to make conclusions based on your dumb questions? Are you just asking questions? JAQs is why 911 truth is slated for eternal failure.


femr2 says -
Stephen Evans BBC Reporter, states explosions, then ducks from the shockwave as the top of WTC explodes behind him.
You have the CD theory. What do you call it, a delusion, or a fact?

femr2 says -
30mph hot dust clouds which blow people off their feet and melt car tyres and burn paint from vehicles sound about right ?
What did it in your 911 fantasy?

You could learn from Bazant, and stop making the failed CD claim (you are making it, albeit, you might be unable to connect your own dots; now that is failure). Good luck.
 
I'm asking you about YOUR assertions from YOUR video clips.

By your repeated failure to answer, I'll accept your admission that you never answered my questions.
What nonsense.

Start here...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6816588&postcount=1639
...and your response...http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6818728&postcount=1674

As I said, I will (as you've seen previously) reconstruct the entire dialogue in order to highlight your M.O. in these matters. As I've said just before your post, I'll gather some AV resources together.

And that means that you were blatantly lying
ROFL...
JRR Tolkien said:
'You lie,' said Wormtongue.

'That word comes too oft and easy from your lips,' said Gandalf. 'I do not lie. See, Théoden, here is a snake! With safety you cannot take it with you, nor can you leave it behind. To slay it would be just. But it was not always as it now is. Once it was a man, and did you service in its fashion. Give him a horse and let him go at once, wherever he chooses. By his choice you shall judge him.'

you implied ("tfk, have you forgotten a couple of responses ?") that you HAD answered my questions.
Baby steps tom. You have problems retaining information given, so piece at a time, with your confirmation and agreement along the way. Ne excuses later about you not understanding the route along the way then you see ;)

And now, from this, your stated intention to never answer those questions, I'll accept that you HAVE no answer.
You can invent whatever answer you please, but it'll remain your own invention.

You're simply hoping this entire issue will go away.
Nonsense.

Have a nice day.
 
YouTube - WTC Demolition - WTC1 #2 you do have the CD theory, or is it a delusion?. Is this why you have to attack Bazant with your no goal 28 m/s non-theory stuff?
ROFL. It's a video title beachnut. The subject matter. Loads of video's on my channel with the same video name prefix. All of these discussions are all fundamentally about the same topic. You post in them. Where is your CD theory beachnut ?

What is my CD theory beachnut ? You've been talking about it for a year. Out with it.

Have a nice day.
 
This is an excellent little clip of the propagation front moving downh the east and south faces, WTC2:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Xenomorph911WTC?&MMN_position=314:314#p/u/64/RfI8GHtjJB8

Xenomorph again.

Can anyone recognize the collapse front? That is what the OOS process looks like before it is obscured by falling debris.

You can recognize the small "cotton-ball" pattern of ejections and the color is always a light grey.

And I'll ask again.

You assert that the violent plumes of dust / debris laden air are "the collapse front".

What is your proof that this is the collapse front & not a pressure wave that is 5, 10, 15 stories below the real collapse front that is invisible in the debris cloud?

I see zero external column assemblies being thrown out with these ejecta. None. Not one.

I see single dark objects that are clearly NOT external column assemblies in the lowest clouds. [Virtually all of the column assemblies stayed intact in one or more units of 3 column wide by 3 spandrel assemblies.]

So, once again. Your argument. Your rationalization. Your proof.

Please.
 
ozeco, TFK has given, many times critical analysis to the subject, but there is a point where the evasive, repetitive and haughty manner of these guys becomes intolerable to some. Surely you fail to appreciate that...
Sorry for the delayed response.

I think I am well aware of the social dynamics of this sub forum. Polarisation into two camps and both sides calling each other names would be the two more obvious characteristics.

I try to avoid personal comments, try to ignore those few that have been directed at me and to make objective comments on the technical topic material irrespective of which side it comes from.

In recent posts I have commented on the apparent tendency to treat everything that any "marked man truther" utters as wrong by definition. Hence my recent references to blue sky where at least one person so far has decided to "not understand the metaphor".

You quoted my post and edited out portions with this comment "<lecture in defense of truther tactics snipped>". Why was the snide comment necessary? Even more important why make the false statement? My post made no reference to truther tactics.

So you exhibit an anti truther bias which in my opinion disqualifies some of your comments. Particularly when phrased in hyperbole which infers global application of some partial truths. "...if truthers weren't primarily occupied with crapping..."; "...put the NIST reports and the Bazant papers in the wastebin,..."

I see that other members have also responded to your comments.
 
I see zero external column assemblies being thrown out with these ejecta. None. Not one.
Why would you expect to ? Perimeter peels waaay behind the crush fronts tom.

Lots of cladding ejection and perimeter deformation...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CebtLGtkAkQ

Make sure you set the quality to 720p and view fullscreen.

Take note of the origin of the crush front ejecta from initiation and follow it.


Are you suggesting the *upper block* is just sitting still up there waiting for a bit of perimeter to fall off ? ;)
 
ROFL. ...
What is my CD theory beachnut ? ...
Have a nice day.
A delusion you can't define or defend. That is it.

You have company, Major Tom has the CD theory, he is in the same boat, unable to define, support or defend his delusion. You guys in 911 truth can't do much more than fail at attacking models you don't understand.
This is an excellent little clip of the propagation front moving downh the east and south faces, WTC2:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Xenomorph911WTC?&MMN_position=314:314#p/u/64/RfI8GHtjJB8

Xenomorph again.

Can anyone recognize the collapse front? That is what the OOS process looks like before it is obscured by falling debris.

You can recognize the small "cotton-ball" pattern of ejections and the color is always a light grey.
911 truth in action, doing nothing.
You present a nut on CD as your support for off topic idiotic delusions that have nothing to do with Bazant's work, or 911. Presenting someone's delusional video on 911 who works with AE911T, is self critiquing. You use work by morons to support your failed CD delusion, your no point what ever...

Stop showing off you have no clue what a model is, and no idea what happened on 911. Try to understand Bazant's work instead of weakly pushing your failed CD claims by attacking his work.
 
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Perimeter effectively acts as a cage.


From the research of Frank Greening (I post his work as a researcher only. I don't want to break any rules):

Might I suggest that everyone take a look at the thesis by A.G. Vlassis entitled:

"Progressive Collapse Assessment of Tall Buildings"

Available on-line at:

http://eprints.imperial.ac.uk/handle/10044/1/1342

(Thesis can be purchased for US$35)

See especially Chapter 6.

Most of this material has also been published as a paper entitled "Progressive Collapse of Multi-Storey Buildings due to Failed Floor Impact" in Engineering Structures 31, 1522, (2009)

A quote from this paper is very pertinent to the present discussion:

"It can be concluded that in the event of a failure and subsequent impact of a single floor plate onto the floor plate below , the lower impacted system is highly unlikely to possess sufficient dynamic load carrying capacity to resist the imposed dynamic loads and prevent progressive collapse. .... This is particularly true when the falling floor completely disintegrates and falls as debris without retaining any residual strength or spanning capability

...

According to Vlassis the "ductility supply" that would be available in the connectors (bolts and welds) is key to collapse propagation because it controls the "joint rotation demand", (theta), of typical beam - column connections as well as column - column splice/connections.

Seismically qualified connectors fail at rotations > 0.05 radians.

Vlassis estimates that for a single floor impact in a typical "tall building", the beam-to-beam impacts that would inevitably occur, involve connector deflections of 0.1 - 0.3 radians and would therefore most certainly result in connector failure."

and later, from the abstract:

"Furthermore, a methodology is developed, based on the proposed assessment framework for sudden column loss, to consider the impact of floor failure on a lower floor, in order to establish whether this would in fact trigger progressive collapse".


The thesis shows that Dr V has been looking into the ROOSD concept and shows that the truss cannections are especially vulnerable to this type of runaway process.

It is a shame it costs that much to download. This could be the best literature on this type of progressive failure available. This is probably the best mathematical treatment of the initiation stage of ROOSD.
 
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