Psiload
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Merged Their Return
- Thread starter King of the Americas
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bruto
Penultimate Amazing
KoA keeps mentioning "60 thousand farmers." My understanding is that the population of the settlement was about 60 thousand. The whole point of farming is that a relatively small number of farmers can feed a population that performs other tasks. In a population that size, why would it be unreasonable to expect a large number of stone workers, if stone work is deemed an important occupation? It's utterly ridiculous to assume that even in an agrarian society everyone is a farmer.
EHocking
Penultimate Amazing
To refresh KotA's memory of the MP3 - at the height of their civilisation, there was a population of 400,000.
Perhaps 60,000 of them were farmers?
This leaves 340,000 to think about building temples and 5 or more centuries to contemplate how to manage it...
tsig
a carbon based life-form
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How much?
I worked for Ford Motor in an assembly plant and "I" never built a single car nobody in the whole plant ever built a car but "we" built 1000 a day.
tsig
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Probably a lifetime or two. Why is that a problem?
Elizabeth I
Philosopher
Show me how what you're saying is not, "I don't understand how it was done, therefore mysterious godlike beings did it."
No. You have said it, asserted it even, but you haven't shown it.
Nonpareil
The Terrible Trivium
So? That's what I said. They had a lot of time.
Or do you think it's impossible for something to have been built in a time period greater than, oh, say about twenty-six years?
Yeah_Right
Muse
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"At its peak, 400,000 people lived in and around the Tiwanaku site", There is no mention of the 60,000 figure on that podcast.
tsig
a carbon based life-form
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Let's see:
60 sec x 60 min/hour = 36000sec/hour
3600 sec/hour / 1block/9 sec = 400 blocks/hour
400 blocks/hour x 12 hours/day = 4800 blocks/day
4800 blocks/day x 365 days/year = 1,752,000 blocks/year
1752000 blocks/year x 20 years = 35,040,000 blocks moved in 20 years.
That's ten times the highest estimate I've seen.
Assumptions: 12 hour shifts, no holidays, 365 days/year in Egyptian times.
(if you find any math mistakes[blame my calculator] that proves you are closed minded so keep them to your self
)
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Stray Cat
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Indeed. Anyone who has played any of those civilisation type simulation games will know it's not a good strategy to have everyone farming.
If they were all farmers, they would soon run into problems... No one to build farm houses, no one to make cooking utensils, furniture, clothing, metalwork, protect from invading armies, make new laws, decide to build a new mega temple... the list is quite long. I live in what could be described as a rural farming community (well, right on the edge of one) and not everyone in the community is a farmer.
Correa Neto
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Let's suppose KotA's 60K people figure is correct.
Now let's suppose 0.5% of these people worked carving stones.
What could 300 people working say, for 10 yars, create?
Aniway, a good read for KotA would be "The Pillars of the Earth". The TV series might also do the trick.
Now let's suppose 0.5% of these people worked carving stones.
What could 300 people working say, for 10 yars, create?
Aniway, a good read for KotA would be "The Pillars of the Earth". The TV series might also do the trick.
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
I did at some point see a reference (can't remember which of the many I've been rummaging through) that suggested the population of the city itself was around 60 thousand. The 400 thousand figure would presumably be the "greater Tiwanaku" figure. Either way, of course the population of this thriving urban center would support plenty of both master craftsmen and laborers in the stone industry, which was obviously an important one to them.
Correa Neto
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By sheer coincidence last night I was watching at NatGeo a documentary on Macchu Pichu, celebrating 100 years of its discovery.
The methods the Incas used to carve, move and settle andesite blocks were shown; they need nothing but manpower, stones, ropes and logs.
Yeah, yeah Tiwanaku people were not Incan, but the methods they used were most likely the same or very similar.
Macchu Picchu was an incredible engineering achievment. Its drainage system, unnoticed by most people, is IMHO its greatest wonder. Macchu Picchu is, I believe, more technologically challenging than Tiwanaku.
Its also interesting to notice that the answers to these "ancient myseries" is easily available if one sticks his/her head outside the pool of crap built by people like Von Daniken.
The methods the Incas used to carve, move and settle andesite blocks were shown; they need nothing but manpower, stones, ropes and logs.
Yeah, yeah Tiwanaku people were not Incan, but the methods they used were most likely the same or very similar.
Macchu Picchu was an incredible engineering achievment. Its drainage system, unnoticed by most people, is IMHO its greatest wonder. Macchu Picchu is, I believe, more technologically challenging than Tiwanaku.
Its also interesting to notice that the answers to these "ancient myseries" is easily available if one sticks his/her head outside the pool of crap built by people like Von Daniken.
King of the Americas
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I have said it would take an army of master masons decades to complete
OR
a advanced technology
That said, I'd here and now like to slightly alter my stance:
An army of master masons COULD accomplish the task, but only WITH modern tools. REGARDLESS of the time given 'I' don't don't think the work could have been accomplished with period tools. Whatever tools or technology they DID used, is gone.
I haven't mentioned it yet, but there are 'thin cuts', with holes drilled evenly apart within, that they themselves contain contain right angles. (http://api.ning.com/files/gX3HeYgD8...BDlIfeLb156jEa3ZvcgVXA5/PumaPunku011Small.jpg) This was the work of a saw blade, from my perspective.
Today, you'd need silicone valley style technology to create a microchip. Regardless of how much time me, my sons, or grandsons had, we would be unable to turn raw silicone into a working chip, without 'advanced technology'. I could bang rocks together from now until eternity, but without the technology, it ain't gonna happen.
The technology that built Puma Punku is MISSING, meaning it is GONE, not here, has been lost, and or is no longer in our possession.
---
*I go a way for a few hours, and I get over run with retorts... My apologies. If I missed your a unaddressed point, please feel free to point it out.
Thank you all for your time and patients.
Elizabeth I
Philosopher
Again:
a) Please provide some backup besides "that's what I feel is true" for your statement that it would have taken an "army of master masons" to create the structures in question, even with "modern tools." Show your math and provide architectural and engineering citations supporting your initial assumptions.Elizabeth I said:
b) If your statement about the impossibility of doing the work without "modern" tools is true, how do you explain the number of extremely complicated, sophisticated, very old structures around the world? Were they all built by either "armies of master masons" or your advanced technocrats? Do you persist in handwaving away the Parthenon and Petra as not in the same class as your baby? What about Teotihuacán? Angkor Wat? Macchu Picchu? The Roman Coliseum (or for that matter, the Roman aqueduct system?) Chichén Itzá and Tulum? Michaelangelo's David and the Pieta?
c) What are you including in "modern tools"?
d) Have you taken into account the information provided about the actual population of the civilization that built Puma Punku? It sounds to me as if there were plenty of people to support the builders while they did their work - again, as has been pointed out to you numerous times, if this type of work were important, holy even, and ordained by the authorities.
e) You persist in talking about "master masons." Has it ever occurred to you that there could have been something like a guild system - masters, journeymen, apprentices, etc., down to the common laborers pulling the stones around? In fact, if this were a religious or sacred endeavor of some kind, that's exactly what you might expect: a class of men initiated in the secrets, together with assistants, acolytes and servants supporting their work, each group armed with just a little less knowledge than the rank above it.
King of the Americas
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a) I can only provide you MY findings, and encourage you to gather your own, in regards to how much time it takes to remove how much stone. Carving repeated descending right angles into andesite With other stones, is NOT possible, regardless of no time constraints. You would NEED hardened tools, and even armed with today's carbide tipped tools, a novice could NOT Make this: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4003/4526966166_0fbefbb9ca.jpg, without a detailed set of instructions, I.E. "a written language". The hardness of the stones and dimensional accuracy achieved are not singularly the only truly impressive thing here, but it is the amount of work present: http://www.paleoseti.com/bilder/pumapunku/Puma Punku014.jpg, that DEMANDS that an advanced technology of some sort, was at work there.
b) That some of them were created with this same or similar lost technology. Modern marble works, although impressive, don't 'equal' the sheer amount of mastery level work present at Puma Punku. Michaelaneglo himself would not have been able to create 'one' of those without a detailed set of instructions, hardened tools, and 10 years.
c) Machines. Men have been shaping stone with hammer and chisel for centuries. The earliest of which were softer, than we have now. Without modern tools, these works were not possible.
d) This is not about population... I have amended that statement based on the work difficulty, itself.
e) That all sounds nice...
b) That some of them were created with this same or similar lost technology. Modern marble works, although impressive, don't 'equal' the sheer amount of mastery level work present at Puma Punku. Michaelaneglo himself would not have been able to create 'one' of those without a detailed set of instructions, hardened tools, and 10 years.
c) Machines. Men have been shaping stone with hammer and chisel for centuries. The earliest of which were softer, than we have now. Without modern tools, these works were not possible.
d) This is not about population... I have amended that statement based on the work difficulty, itself.
e) That all sounds nice...
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King of the Americas
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How did they presume they completed this work?
At that elevation, the number of workers is expounded, due to the lack of oxygen at that level. How many men DOES it take to move 1 ton, vertically at that elevation? It CAN'T be the same as at sea level...
What technique did they use to surface those stones?
I'll bet they DON'T know. If ALL those stones are andesite, then there was an advanced technology at work there too. That stuff isn't soft, and take massive amount of energy to shape.
What it looks like was that the stones were stacked into place, within molds, then softened and smashed together like so much clay, then hardened again. THIS would indeed be an 'advanced technology', that we lack today.
These works are anything but 'easy' or even possible without modern/advanced technology.
King of the Americas
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I LOVE those kinds of games...
Within them, do the "Wonder" options become available at the beginning, or end of the gaming scenario?
Because, what we have at Pumu Punku is a truly Wondrous marvel, then a culture rose, and built up and around it, in a less 'Wondrous' manner, but still impressive.
The 'peak' is in the wrong place, here.
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
You have made a common mistake here. You used the word 'findings' when you meant to use the word 'opinion'.
Another common mistake. You forgot to add '...in my opinion.' And then explain why your opinion isn't based on anything pertinent.
Obviously, these works don't exist here or anywhere else then. Nor does the statue of David nor microchips.
Good, let's go get a beer then.
This describes your beliefs in a nutshell.