Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Chris_Halkides]

money can't buy me love (but it might buy me a defense)

I suppose his legal fees could be pretty astronomical now that you mention it. Legal fees could probably account for a sizeable chunk of the 2 million.

Could be all of it. I am no expert, but I know one case where just one trial cost $500,000. I know of one case where the bill was $1,000,000 or more, and there was no trial.

 

[Fine]

Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
Greg Hampikian interview last night (starts about 19 minutes into the podcast).

http://www.mynorthwest.com/?nid=577&...10&n=Northwest

RoseMontague,

He clearly explained what is wrong with the collection of the clasp and the lack of SOPs. I was a little surprised that he focused on secondary transfer, as opposed to contamination, as a possible explanation for Meredith's DNA, but he makes a plausible case for it.

___________________________

I'm not impressed. The usual misinformation. The bra clasp was supposedly "kicked around" Meredith's room and Rudy's DNA was supposedly "all over the victim."

But with a couple new inventions, apparently to illustrate how Meredith's bedroom had been trashed by the cops. At the 25:10 elapsed time index in the interview, Hampikian "informs" us that Meredith's bed and closet had been removed from her bedroom, prior to collection of the bra clasp. (Huh?)


///

 

[Draca]

At the 25:10 elapsed time index in the interview, Hampikian "informs" us that Meredith's bed and closet had been removed from her bedroom, prior to collection of the bra clasp. (Huh?)

The Mattress had been taken into the dining/living room and was placed upside down on the sofa.

The Wardrobe doors had been removed and placed against the door into MK's room.

 

[Dan O.]

The reason why I don't think that this photo shows the result of a cyanoacrylate test is that it's very difficult indeed to test whole rooms using this method.

Cyanoacrylate (super glue fume) is used to develop latent prints on objects that would not allow the typical powder dusting such as skin and some clothings. Though the technique was developed in contained laboratory conditions, it can be deployed on larger scales. I recall the opening of one detective show where a plastic tent was constructed over a body at the crime scene. It was all routine like this was standard police procedure... until the deliberately overloaded outlet sparked causing the highly flammable fumes to ignite compounded by somebody's oversight of replacing the fire retardant in the handy extinguisher with gasoline.

The first reference to house of horrors that I can find (quick search) is in this unbiased article from the Daily Mail in November of 2007, well before the release of the photo.

Your article (here) is dated Nov. 11, 2007. The ViviCentro archive (here) has the phrase "house of horrors" in the entry dated Nov. 7 beating your reference by 4 days.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

There is no such "source," as you well know.

However, there are a lot of facts about the case that point to this conclusion. It is a matter of connecting the dots, which is a legitimate reasoning process.

One very telling "dot" is the prosecution's objection to testing the knife handle in the appeal, for example.

I sense that your question was a fallback response from someone who senses the argument is slipping away from them, after several forum pages devoted to discussion of the issue.

Babycondor

When someone posts empathetical it is not unreasonable to request their source, if they are unable to do so then I conclude they are expressing an opinion as opposed to a independent verifiable fact.

With regards to the prosecution objecting to the knife being dismantled, I guess my question would be did they request this in their appeal submission? If they did not then that is outside the terms of the re-examination. The question for me is if they didn't request dismantling in their appeal submission then that is a mistake.

Do you know what was in the defences appeal documentation?

The only argument truly matters is what takes place in court and the courts conclusion, we are exchanging views arguing points of the case.

 

[Dan O.]

The pillow wouldn't have been on the floor before the attack. If the stain is smeared it would have been there before it was stepped on.

There is a scenario involving fantasy and an attacker alone in the girls cottage that can end up with the freshly stained pillow on the floor and Rudy in the bathroom before Meredith comes home. If the stain is tested and found to belong to Rudy Guede, this scenario is the one I expect he will profess to avoid the prevailing theory that he raped her while she was dead or dying. I however will never accept it if he waits until after the stain is tested to make the claim and will presume he is just making up another story to avoid the necrophiliac tag.

 

[Draca]

There is a scenario involving fantasy and an attacker alone in the girls cottage that can end up with the freshly stained pillow on the floor and Rudy in the bathroom before Meredith comes home. If the stain is tested and found to belong to Rudy Guede, this scenario is the one I expect he will profess to avoid the prevailing theory that he raped her while she was dead or dying. I however will never accept it if he waits until after the stain is tested to make the claim and will presume he is just making up another story to avoid the necrophiliac tag.

I wish you wouldn't use the term necrophilia. She was fatally wounded and dying but not dead when her clothes were removed. It's a very disturbing word and I don't think accurate.

And that fantasy is ridiculous. She went to her room, tossed her books on the bed, hung the tote bag on the back of the chair. She didn't notice the creep with the pillow in the middle of the room?

 

[Chris C]

There is a scenario involving fantasy and an attacker alone in the girls cottage that can end up with the freshly stained pillow on the floor and Rudy in the bathroom before Meredith comes home. If the stain is tested and found to belong to Rudy Guede, this scenario is the one I expect he will profess to avoid the prevailing theory that he raped her while she was dead or dying. I however will never accept it if he waits until after the stain is tested to make the claim and will presume he is just making up another story to avoid the necrophiliac tag.

In one of Guede's initial statements to German police he claimed that someone else killed Meredith and might have raped her. That statement was ruled not admissable because Guede didn't have a lawyer present. So technically he wouldn't be changing his story. He could say I told them that when I was first took into custody. So if the stain isn't his but someone elses, then what? Remember there is also a supposed semen stain underneath Meredith's body that was left by Guede's shoes. Everyone always assumes the rape happened after she was stabbed, just because the bra might have been removed after she was stabbed. However, there is supposedly a possible semen stain left underneath Meredith's body in a shoeprint, which IMO goes against the theory of her being stabbed and then raped. The real problem that could screw people up is if one stain is Guede and one isn't.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

verb of choice

Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
Greg Hampikian interview last night (starts about 19 minutes into the podcast).

http://www.mynorthwest.com/?nid=577&...10&n=Northwest




___________________________

I'm not impressed. The usual misinformation. The bra clasp was supposedly "kicked around" Meredith's room and Rudy's DNA was supposedly "all over the victim."

But with a couple new inventions, apparently to illustrate how Meredith's bedroom had been trashed by the cops. At the 25:10 elapsed time index in the interview, Hampikian "informs" us that Meredith's bed and closet had been removed from her bedroom, prior to collection of the bra clasp. (Huh?)


///

Fine,

How would you describe happened to the clasp prior to collection? During collection?

 

[Draca]

Remember there is also a supposed semen stain underneath Meredith's body that was left by Guede's shoes. Everyone always assumes the rape happened after she was stabbed, just because the bra might have been removed after she was stabbed. However, there is supposedly a possible semen stain left underneath Meredith's body in a shoeprint, which IMO goes against the theory of her being stabbed and then raped.

You're talking about the same stain. On the pillow that MK's hips were on top of.

Why do you think it goes against the theory of being stabbed first?

 

[Chris C]

You're talking about the same stain. On the pillow that MK's hips were on top of.

Why do you think it goes against the theory of being stabbed first?

There are 2 seperate stains. One left by Guede's shoe and another between the hips of Meredith. Both are believed to be semen stains. Mignini claims they were not tested because you couldn't date how long they had been there. Eventhough one of the stains was left by a shoe, meaning it had to be fresh. One of those semen stains I believe is underneath the body.

Well I guess it would go against being stabbed first depending on how much blood was on her panties and thighs. After all the killer should have had bloody hands. He left blood on the door handle and in the bathroom.

 

[Draca]

There are 2 seperate stains. One left by Guede's shoe and another between the hips of Meredith. Both are believed to be semen stains. Mignini claims they were not tested because you couldn't date how long they had been there. Eventhough one of the stains was left by a shoe, meaning it had to be fresh. One of those semen stains I believe is underneath the body.

Well I guess it would go against being stabbed first depending on how much blood was on her panties and thighs. After all the killer should have had bloody hands. He left blood on the door handle and in the bathroom.

ah, I thought your meant one not on the pillow.

Charlie said there is little blood on her lower body. If she was standing or knealing she would have aspirated blood there also.

 

[babycondor]

Babycondor

When someone posts empathetical it is not unreasonable to request their source, if they are unable to do so then I conclude they are expressing an opinion as opposed to a independent verifiable fact.

With regards to the prosecution objecting to the knife being dismantled, I guess my question would be did they request this in their appeal submission? If they did not then that is outside the terms of the re-examination. The question for me is if they didn't request dismantling in their appeal submission then that is a mistake.

Do you know what was in the defences appeal documentation?

The only argument truly matters is what takes place in court and the courts conclusion, we are exchanging views arguing points of the case.

Here is one report in the American press regarding the request to dismantle the knife. Conti is one of the forensic scientists appointed by the court to review the evidence:

... Conti got an early lesson on just how delicate every decision is when he politely asked his first--and only--question to the court.

"Do we have permission to take apart the handle of the knife should it be opportune and possible?"

At first, the judge appeared to agree that the additional step was appropriate. Forensic police did not check for blood or DNA evidence inside the handle of the knife, and some have suggested the joint where the blade meets the handle could be an important point for testing. But prosecutors and the attorneys representing the Kercher family immediate launched a strongly worded objection, saying if the court approved such an expansion of forensic inquiry without additional debate, the appeal would be getting off to "a very bad start."

Knox's and Sollecito's attorneys both reiterated that they only wanted "truth" for their clients and had no problem with the additional testing. The judge settled on a compromise.

"If it is possible to repeat the testing on the evidence, it should be done," Judge Hellman said. "Otherwise you should evaluate the procedures done by the forensic police, including the attribution of those genetic codes. If it is absolutely necessary to open the handle, make a request to the court and we will consider it."

 

[Dan O.]

I wish you wouldn't use the term necrophilia. She was fatally wounded and dying but not dead when her clothes were removed. It's a very disturbing word and I don't think accurate.

That term is buried about 3 conditionals deep so I don't expect it to surface. But it's use is intended to paint a very disturbing picture of Rudy if he doesn't confess first. Rudy though would know if he has nothing to fear from the test results.

And that fantasy is ridiculous. She went to her room, tossed her books on the bed, hung the tote bag on the back of the chair. She didn't notice the creep with the pillow in the middle of the room?

The only way I can make sense of the attack is if the creep was in the bathroom at the time that Meredith came home. Otherwise the toilet would have been flushed. Just the pillow would be on the floor. If she wasn't too hung over when she awoke that morning it would have been a minor concern that somebody had been in her room. Perhaps it prompted her to check if her rent money was still where she stashed it.

There appear to be bloody shoe prints all over that pillow and this makes me think that the pillow could have been there before the attack. If I could see where Meredith's body was in relation to the pillow and the prints, I might change my view. What we need is a chalk outline of the body on top of the pillow showing all the footprints and the stain.

 

[Chris C]

ah, I thought your meant one not on the pillow.

Charlie said there is little blood on her lower body. If she was standing or knealing she would have aspirated blood there also.

Yes but there is no bloody shoeprint where one of the semen stains is. Also a semen stain with Guede's shoeprint goes against prosecution theory that Knox/Sollecito staged the room also.

 

[Fine]

Fine,

How would you describe happened to the clasp prior to collection? During collection?

____________________________

halides1,

Well, I didn't see the bra clasp being kicked around. I didn't see anything being kicked around in the evidence-collection video. But I did see Meredith's closet in that video. Something that seems to have escaped Hampikian's attention, though he says explicitly in his interview that he'd watched that video.

If I were to guess, I'd guess that a member of the Forensic Police placed the bra clasp aside on November 2nd or 3rd, placing it on the blue rug, where it was later found.

In fairness, I didn't like to see specks of dirt on the glove handling the clasp.
Still, if the glove had been used only in Meredith's room---according to protocol--- this shouldn't have resulted in contamination with Raffaele's DNA. (Where's Rudy's DNA on the clasp?) If there's an innocent explanation I think Raffaele's DNA came from Meredith's fingers. Which would explain why there were traces of multiple individuals on the clasp. Do you think there were DNA traces of multiple individuals on that glove???

///

 

[CDHost]

Faked break in

OK so the key question is:

Did Rudy fake the break in? In other words is Rudy's story essentially correct that they had a date, he went home with her, she let him in....? He faked the break in because he thought they had been seen. Is there any reason to reject that theory? Assuming a faked break in is there any reason to reject the Rudy theory.

Obviously if you believe in an actual break in that's Rudy too.

 

[Dan O.]

Setting aside all questions of whether it is reasonable for Meredith to ask Rudy for a date while her current boyfriend is out of town...

Rudy says he heard the doorbell ring while he was on the toilet. Amanda doesn't need to ring the bell since she has a key. Nobody else can ring the doorbell because the button is on the panel behind the folded security gate (if there is another doorbell, SomeAlibi didn't see it when he was there in the daytime to take pictures inside the appartment). Did Meredith unfold the security gate and lock Rudy in the house as her captive sex slave? Rudy never mentions this but it might have happened while Rudy was behind the refrigerator door stealing a drink of OJ.

 

[RWVBWL]

Alessandra Formica

Greetings all,
Earlier today, Justinian2 mentioned the PMF Timeline, which made mention of Alessandra Formica.

I've had a problem trying to fit in Alessandra Formica's testimony into my earlier theories, this is because she stated in court that the person she saw at about 10:30pm the night of the murder was not Rudy Guede. Keep in mind that Alessandra Formica came forward on her own free will shortly after the murder, not a year later at the behest of a local newspaper journalist. So I believe she is honest in her testimony and her intent was good.

Since we know that Meredith's cell phones were already gone from her residence shortly after 10:00pm, I assume, as I bet you do too, that Rudy Guede had left the apartment before 10:30pm.

But Alessandra Formica saw someone that night who did not want to be seen as he rushed by her and her friend. Who was not Rudy Guede. Is this related to the murder of Meredith Kercher? I tend to think so.

I believe that Rudy Guede left the apartment very quickly after Meredith was brutally stabbed to her death. I do not think he locked Meredith's bedroom door at the time. Since the front door was left unlocked, -(when found by Amanda Knox the following morning), I believe that others, such as the person Alessandra Formica saw that night, might have also entered the apartment. There are unattributed fingerprints that were found. If anyone did enter, do you think that they would have stayed inside the apartment long? Especially if they looked inside Meredith's bedroom? Heck no, and I bet that upon leaving, they probably would not have wanted to be seen, much like the person who rushed by Alessandra Formica that night around 10:30pm...

If this scenerio is possible, well it might also explain, as Frank Sfarzo wrote out here, in "The Secrect of the Door"
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2011/01/angels-and-demons-around-amanda-knox.html
that Nara was correct. She did hear a loud scream. But if so, I think it was not when Meredith was stabbed to her death, but later on, around 11:30pm, after the tow truck and the broken down car had left, when someone else went into that apartment with the front door left wide open late at night.

Does anyone have any information what Rudy Guede was supposed to have done after he left the Domus nightclub?
Did he say goodbye to his bro's and then head home and go to sleep, or did he wander about the deserted town at 3:00am trippin' out, seeing red? Maybe, just maybe, curiousity got the best of Rudy Guede* and he did come back later on to Meredith Kercher's apartment after the Domus nightclub had closed down for the night, broke the window with that heavy rock, entered, and did his thing. Afterwards, he covered Meredith with the duvet, locked her door, couldn't lock the front door for some reason and then went downstairs and crashed in the Stefano's bedroom, getting cat's blood on the lightswitches...

As you can see, I still wonder of many things in this brutal murder we discuss...
Have a nice weekend everyone, RWVBWL

*IIRC, news of Meredith's death spread around town like a wildfire, so to say.
But it did not do so while Rudy Guede was dancing at the Domus nightclub. This is why I believe he might have came back to the scene of the crime after the club had closed. Especially if intoxicated, when guys' usually have liquid courage or beer goggles on. It was just too quiet.

I believe this is why no one heard a rock breaking a window at about 9:00pm or a bit later that night, when many people were awake and still out and about, as per the couple whose car broke down testified. Because it didn't happen then.
I think that Rudy Guede came back in the early morning hours after leaving the nightclub, when no one was around, such as Alessandra Formica, and he had all the time he wanted, and he wasn't worried about making too much noise by throwing a heavy rock, 1 that seemingly weighed more than a gallon of milk, thru a glass window...

 

[Onofarar]

The whole litany of why the 'murder knife' is bogus is becoming onerous to iterate. I practiced the major ones on CW the other day, he probably thought I forgot who I was talking to. Let's see, off the top of my head:

The DNA was LCN, past the 'too low' setting on the machine, they refused to release the EDF files, and the unlicensed lab makes the risible claim it has never had any contamination. It didn't match the outline on the bed, at least one and probably two of the major wounds, and the last could have been made by anything from a box cutter to a broadsword. The 'DNA' was not blood and was curiously found right on the blade and nowhere else, but the knife was never opened so the cracks where it couldn't be cleaned could be checked for blood traces.

The handle somehow bore traces of Amanda's DNA but not any of Meredith's blood, that being just about impossible considering the nature of the only wound it could have definitely made. It is the only trace whatsoever of Amanda at the site, highly implausible if she was supposed to be wielding it in a vicious struggle. It was plucked from a drawer by 'police intuition' leaving other knives behind and does anyone really believe they planned to eat with it?

Is that everything? I must have missed something, like I did the SMS message when writing the summary the other day. There are just too many damned details to remember about what is wrong with every aspect of this case. It must be so much easier to believe in guilt.

I should switch sides.

Another great post.
BTW -I've changed my mind the Pulitzer should be for the overall quality of the body of your work on this site.