Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Chris_Halkides]

The red and the black

I thought there was a huge amount of blood which had been cleaned up. The famous picture?

As for the mop, there is a mop on the porch. Amanda herself makes frequent references to the mop and carrying it everywhere. But you are right I shouldn't have said seen with. That might have been where they kept the mop, but that doesn't explain Amanda's focus on it in her statements.

CDHost,

The release of the famous picture is one of the blackest moments in the case. You mean the one where the bathroom looks red, right? The actual bathroom looked pretty normal, but it was chemically treated to produce the pink to red color.

There has been some debate here about which chemical it was. Dan O. argued for phenolphthalein produced by oxidation of phenolphthalin via the Kastle-Meyer test for blood. Frank reported that it was cyanoacryate. I did a little bit of research, and it turns out that cyanoacrylate fumes are sometimes used to detect latent fingerprints. The fingerprint visualization also requires a dye (of which I believe that there are several), and the print can look red or purple. The photo was released to the press without any explanation of which I am aware, and they were "mistaken in their minds" for doing so, IMO.

 

[Kaosium]

Kaosium,

I recall saying much the same thing in my first blog piece on the case. The knife that doesn't match the wounds, doesn't match the bloody outline of a knife on the sheet, that was not disposed of right after the murder...It would be all be risible if the stakes of the case were not so high.

The whole litany of why the 'murder knife' is bogus is becoming onerous to iterate. I practiced the major ones on CW the other day, he probably thought I forgot who I was talking to. Let's see, off the top of my head:

The DNA was LCN, past the 'too low' setting on the machine, they refused to release the EDF files, and the unlicensed lab makes the risible claim it has never had any contamination. It didn't match the outline on the bed, at least one and probably two of the major wounds, and the last could have been made by anything from a box cutter to a broadsword. The 'DNA' was not blood and was curiously found right on the blade and nowhere else, but the knife was never opened so the cracks where it couldn't be cleaned could be checked for blood traces.

The handle somehow bore traces of Amanda's DNA but not any of Meredith's blood, that being just about impossible considering the nature of the only wound it could have definitely made. It is the only trace whatsoever of Amanda at the site, highly implausible if she was supposed to be wielding it in a vicious struggle. It was plucked from a drawer by 'police intuition' leaving other knives behind and does anyone really believe they planned to eat with it?

Is that everything? I must have missed something, like I did the SMS message when writing the summary the other day. There are just too many damned details to remember about what is wrong with every aspect of this case. It must be so much easier to believe in guilt.

I should switch sides.

 

[christianahannah]

4.66 million Euros total of which around 2 million Euros will be payable from Raffaele's personal assets.

Here is the judgment concerning Rudy Guede's compensation for the civil trial (sorry it is Google Translated, but it should give some idea of the compensation):

Conviction

Guede Rudi Hermann

To compensation for damage suffered by the civil party formed Tattanelli Aldalia, be settled in separate court, and to pay related costs, which in liquid 2800.00 for fees and expenses, plus overhead costs, VAT and accessories;

To compensation for damage suffered by the civil parties formed Kercher John Leslie, Arlin Kercher Mary Carol, Kercher John Ashley, Kercher Lyle that liquid on fairness to the extent of 2,000,000.00 each for Kercher John Leslie and Arlin Kercher Mary Carol and the extent of 1,500,000.00 each for Kercher John Ashley and Kercher Lyle, and to pay related costs, that clears 30,000.00 in total fees, in addition to overhead costs, VAT and accessories;

To compensation for damage suffered by the civil party formed Kercher Stephanie Lara Arlin, that clears on fairness to the extent of 1,500,000.00 and to pay related costs, that clears 18,000.00 in fees, in addition to overhead costs, VAT and accessories;

 

[christianahannah]

Christianahannah

So based on your post is he handling the Kercher families civil complaint “pro bono” and the Italian State is paying for the criminal case?

This I am not sure. I will have to search my memory and reading of Maresca's involvement. Do criminal trials involve compensation as part of restitution to plaintiffs (apart from civil complaints)? I am unsure of what the legal fees are for since the civil complaint ran concurrent with the criminal trial.

 

[RoseMontague]

The whole litany of why the 'murder knife' is bogus is becoming onerous to iterate. I practiced the major ones on CW the other day, he probably thought I forgot who I was talking to. Let's see, off the top of my head:

The DNA was LCN, past the 'too low' setting on the machine, they refused to release the EDF files, and the unlicensed lab makes the risible claim it has never had any contamination. It didn't match the outline on the bed, at least one and probably two of the major wounds, and the last could have been made by anything from a box cutter to a broadsword. The 'DNA' was not blood and was curiously found right on the blade and nowhere else, but the knife was never opened so the cracks where it couldn't be cleaned could be checked for blood traces.

The handle somehow bore traces of Amanda's DNA but not any of Meredith's blood, that being just about impossible considering the nature of the only wound it could have definitely made. It is the only trace whatsoever of Amanda at the site, nearly impossible if she was supposed to be wielding it in a vicious struggle. It was plucked from a drawer by 'police intuition' leaving other knives behind and does anyone really believe they planned to eat with it?

Is that everything? I must have missed something, like I did the SMS message when writing the summary the other day. There are just too many damned details to remember about what is wrong with every aspect of this case. It must be so much easier to believe in guilt.

I should switch sides.

You are missing the why she would be carrying the knife in the first place questions? And please do not switch sides, your previous post was a great use of language even if you may have left a few things out and I did nominate it.

 

[CDHost]

CDHost,

The release of the famous picture is one of the blackest moments in the case. You mean the one where the bathroom looks red, right? The actual bathroom

I get that but I thought the chemical they were detecting was blood. Are you telling me that the red stains, aren't even hidden blood stains but rather just typical body oils like you would find in any bathroom?

 

[Withnail1969]

The whole litany of why the 'murder knife' is bogus is becoming onerous to iterate. I practiced the major ones on CW the other day, he probably thought I forgot who I was talking to. Let's see, off the top of my head:

The DNA was LCN, past the 'too low' setting on the machine, they refused to release the EDF files, and the unlicensed lab makes the risible claim it has never had any contamination. It didn't match the outline on the bed, at least one and probably two of the major wounds, and the last could have been made by anything from a box cutter to a broadsword. The 'DNA' was not blood and was curiously found right on the blade and nowhere else, but the knife was never opened so the cracks where it couldn't be cleaned could be checked for blood traces.

The handle somehow bore traces of Amanda's DNA but not any of Meredith's blood, that being just about impossible considering the nature of the only wound it could have definitely made. It is the only trace whatsoever of Amanda at the site, nearly impossible if she was supposed to be wielding it in a vicious struggle. It was plucked from a drawer by 'police intuition' leaving other knives behind and does anyone really believe they planned to eat with it?

Is that everything? I must have missed something, like I did the SMS message when writing the summary the other day. There are just too many damned details to remember about what is wrong with every aspect of this case. It must be so much easier to believe in guilt.

I should switch sides.

The knife was visibly dirty and so had not been cleaned. Therefore it should have been practically dripping with blood and DNA.

 

[Withnail1969]

This I am not sure. I will have to search my memory and reading of Maresca's involvement. Do criminal trials involve compensation as part of restitution to plaintiffs (apart from civil complaints)? I am unsure of what the legal fees are for since the civil complaint ran concurrent with the criminal trial.

If anyone thinks Maresca is doing this for free then I have a very nice bridge I'd like to sell them.

 

[RoseMontague]

I get that but I thought the chemical they were detecting was blood. Are you telling me that the red stains, aren't even hidden blood stains but rather just typical body oils like you would find in any bathroom?

Proteins or exposure to air is what I have seen commented.

 

[Justinian2]

Kaosium,

You've made a Kipling fan of me.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6817025#post6817025

I can relate to giants of his era more than to the people of this era. Perhaps the giants of this era will be found someday.

Perhaps Mignini, fearful of his own hidden impulses, has projected them onto Amanda and Raffaele.

Perhaps Mignini, fearful of his own hidden impulses, has tried to protect the world from his own dark side as reflected by his aberrated persecution of Amanda and Raffaele.

Perhaps the persecution of Amanda and Raffaele is due to the fact that Mignini and others aren't masters of their dreams as in the Kipling poem.

 

[RoseMontague]

Kaosium,

You've made a Kipling fan of me.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6817025#post6817025

I can relate to giants of his era more than to the people of this era. Perhaps the giants of this era will be found someday.

Perhaps Mignini, fearful of his own hidden impulses, has projected them onto Amanda and Raffaele.

Perhaps Mignini, fearful of his own hidden impulses, has tried to protect the world from his own dark side as reflected by his aberrated persecution of Amanda and Raffaele.

Kipling and Harper Lee references, just in the last few pages.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

what they did is not certain

I get that but I thought the chemical they were detecting was blood. Are you telling me that the red stains, aren't even hidden blood stains but rather just typical body oils like you would find in any bathroom?

CDHost,

Whatever they did, the evidence was not entered at the trial, and if they really had found blood, it is virtually inconceivable that they would not have said so. If you use phenolphathlin to detect blood, you have to work quickly, because it will oxidize on its own (more slowly than its reaction with blood, but still not very slowly, maybe 30 seconds or so, IIRC). I know less about the detection of latent fingerprints, but it is usually done over a small area. Either way, I suspect that what they did was not good forensic chemistry. I very strongly doubt that they were detecting blood.

RoseMontague,

And there is one reference to Stendhal.

 

[CDHost]

There are just too many damned details to remember about what is wrong with every aspect of this case. It must be so much easier to believe in guilt.

I should switch sides.

I'd love to just start keeping a quick list with links. A sort of FAQ.

 

[CDHost]

Proteins or exposure to air is what I have seen commented.

Whatever they did, the evidence was not entered at the trial, and if they really had found blood, it is virtually inconceivable that they would not have said so. If you use phenolphathlin to detect blood, you have to work quickly, because it will oxidize on its own (more slowly than its reaction with blood, but still not very slowly, maybe 30 seconds or so, IIRC). I know less about the detection of latent fingerprints, but it is usually done over a small area. Either way, I suspect that what they did was not good forensic chemistry. I very strongly doubt that they were detecting blood.
.

Humans shed a lot of skin about a gram a day. That usually gets eaten by mites who produce "dust" from their waste and their own body parts. That would be the predominant protein assuming there was no blood. Are the streaks that? In other words was their any blood in any meaningful quantity in the bathroom ever? It sounds like you all are saying no but I want to make sure I'm understanding the claim.

Because without the bathroom cleanup, then there isn't much evidence a cleanup ever took place which certainly provides a counter I hadn't considered on my 7 options. That's an incredibly strong counter argument.

 

[Supernaut]

"Kidnap/ransom".

Could it be that in the first weeks after the arrests (and particularly while they still thought they had Lumumba) M & M (Mignini & Maresca) thought that AK and RS could be forced into accepting a closed "fast track" trial, pleading guilty to whatever the equivalent of 'accessory to murder' is, with the assurance of a lenient sentence, even less than Guede eventually received?

But with this, the acceptence by them (to be made explicit to the court) that as large a damages payment as they could raise would subsequently be negotiated with the shyster.

M & M might of imagined that they could intimidate the two, percieving them as weak young people - 'nobodies' - into believing that there was no hope of aqcuittal in open court, but that they might be free in a few years (parole after 4 or 5?) if they "cooperated".

If this had been the scheme in the first days or weeks, it rapidly went "the way of the pear" after it became clear that Raff and Amanda were never going to do anything but maintain their complete innocence, and that Amanda's family would sacrifice everything in fighting for her.

(What's needed here is some history, accounts of other Italian trials in recent decades, particularly in Perugia, where there was doubt about the criminal charges, and where civil damages actions have also been brought.)

 

[Justinian2]

The wrong people are in jail.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

damaging leak

Humans shed a lot of skin about a gram a day. That usually gets eaten by mites who produce "dust" from their waste and their own body parts. That would be the predominant protein assuming there was no blood. Are the streaks that? In other words was their any blood in any meaningful quantity in the bathroom ever? It sounds like you all are saying no but I want to make sure I'm understanding the claim.

Because without the bathroom cleanup, then there isn't much evidence a cleanup ever took place which certainly provides a counter I hadn't considered on my 7 options. That's an incredibly strong counter argument.

CDHost,

I do not think we can say what the streaks are with certainty. I will look more into the cyanoacryate chemistry when I have time, but I have a hunch that it could just be skin protein reacting with something. This is just a working hypothesis at this point. Again, if it were blood, it would have been entered into evidence at the trial. This is another example of a damaging pretrial leak, and many people were misled by it. There were a couple of drops of Amanda's blood on the sink faucet, IIRC.

 

[CDHost]

CDHost,

I do not think we can say what the streaks are with certainty. I will look more into the cyanoacryate chemistry when I have time, but I have a hunch that it could just be skin protein reacting with something. This is just a working hypothesis at this point. Again, if it were blood, it would have been entered into evidence at the trial. This is another example of a damaging pretrial leak, and many people were misled by it. There were a couple of drops of Amanda's blood on the sink faucet, IIRC.

OK thanks, keep me informed. I'm going to have reread Massei looking for anything definitive that a cleanup occurred. I'll get back. But without the cleanup, the fake break in just means anyone with access.

 

[Kaosium]

You are missing the why she would be carrying the knife in the first place questions? And please do not switch sides, your previous post was a great use of language even if you may have left a few things out and I did nominate it.

Thank you Rose! I did forget that, but I'm thinking if it was used, she could have just carried it down there at night, it isn't very far as I recall and any just about any attempt at a motive at all, even a 'rape prank' would allow for it. The only thing Massei is good for is the accumulated facts, the 'theories' are simply for entertainment purposes only.

I was kidding of course, you can't 'switch sides' once you've seen behind the curtain.

The knife was visibly dirty and so had not been cleaned. Therefore it should have been practically dripping with blood and DNA.

Was it actually dirty or just stained? Maybe I missed the resolution of that issue. What I was wondering is if it was actually dirty, did that happen before or since it was plucked from the drawer, and what does that mean?

 

[Withnail1969]

Thank you Rose! I did forget that, but I'm thinking if it was used, she could have just carried it down there at night, it isn't very far as I recall and any just about any attempt at a motive at all, even a 'rape prank' would allow for it. The only thing Massei is good for is the accumulated facts, the 'theories' are simply for entertainment purposes only.

I was kidding of course, you can't 'switch sides' once you've seen behind the curtain.



Was it actually dirty or just stained? Maybe I missed the resolution of that issue. What I was wondering is if it was actually dirty, did that happen before or since it was plucked from the drawer, and what does that mean?

It was dirty and the picture of it looking like that dates from when it was seized by police. No way it could possibly have been the murder weapon.