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Merged Discussion of the moon landing "hoax"

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matt.tansy: Sorry to drive you nuts :blush: But I was really wanting to know why nobody has been there since. BTW, yes I do believe WWII did happen :)


I did not mean to address that to you specifically but in hindsight it looks like it was intended that way so I must apologize for that. As for the reason why we haven't been back, sts60 described it best. The question of why we haven't been back drives me nuts on several levels. First, because of the bad logic, and secondly, because we should have colonized Mars by now! Arghhhh! What are we doing still sitting on this stupid little planet! Go to the stars already!

It doesn't look like anybody has linked to it so I will: one of the best resources for addressing the claims of the Moon hoaxers is Moon Base Clavius.
 
matt.tansy: No problems here :) I wish we would have done more with Mars then what we have. I wonder if we will see it in our lifetime. Thanks for the link...I am going to check it out.
 
You seem like you are willing to learn about things and I commend you for that. Please understand that we get a lot of people who come here with pre-determined notions who are "just asking questions" when they really have no interest in hearing the answers. So when someone says something like "I don't know if we went to the moon or not." it raises our antennae. The moon hoax is a somewhat popular conspiracy theory and despite probably the one with the most overwhelming abundance of proof against it, it lives on.

Bolded for emphasis. The "lot of people" Spindrift describes tend to follow a formula: "I was just a naive small town-kid and never thought this would happen to me when I moved into a coed dorm as a freshman..."

Oops, sorry, wrong formula. :eye-poppi The formula goes: "I always believed in the Moon landings, until I saw [ Fox TV special | YouTube video | conspiracy web site ], and was troubled by the question of..." This provides the committed hoax believer a thin veneer of impartiality, of having come to his belief by a careful examination of the record.

Just as formulaic, however, is the dreary inevitability of the True Believer's massive ignorance of the Apollo program, spaceflight in general, physics, how large engineering programs really work, history, and the composition and magnitude of the record itself.

True Believers airily dismiss the documentary record as "fabricated", but not only can they not provide evidence or a credible mechanism for such fakery, but they have no grasp of the scale involved. My group (long before I was there, mind you) was involved in the development of the generator for the Apollo ALSEP robotic lunar laboratories. The documentation we still have for that relatively small effort alone fills multiple file drawers. Other documentation we have, directly related to Apollo space systems rather than the generator itself, runs to thousands of pages - and that is basically "leakage" from the overall record.

Yet someone who doesn't know how many legs the Lunar Module had, or couldn't find multiple instance of jumps that can be Googled in moments, will blithely insist they "researched" the Apollo record or airily wave away documentation they don't even know exists. And that's just the part that has been made easily accessible over the Internet in the past couple of decades. The stuff for which you actually have to go into a library, or write NASA or the GPO to get a hard copy, simply doesn't exist to them. Why should it? It's not on YouTube, or predigested into small bites on some site prepared by someone with a little more energy (but no more clue).

So, as Spindrift says, please excuse any wariness you may encounter initially. It's just the high percentage of posters whose "questions" are merely rhetorical cover for advancing their uninformed disbelief.
 
My favorite example of HB ignorance is the claim the LM should have been one sixth the size of the Saturn V. Why? "Because the gravity on the Moon is one sixth the gravity on the Earth." That sentence incorporates so many different facets of ignorance it is sometimes hard to know where to start to tear it apart.

HBs not knowing the Ascent Module separated from the Descent Module is a close second.
 
Money. It takes lots of money.


Just to put some numbers to this, here's a passage taken from this page at the web site Measuring Worth, a site which allows you to compare prices and costs across different years:

Putting a man on the moon: During March (1966): NASA told Congress the "run-out cost" of the Apollo program (to put men on the moon) would be an estimated $22.718 billion for the 13 year program that accomplished six successful missions of putting astronauts on the moon between July 1969 and December 1972. (http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-4009/keyev4.htm) According the Steve Garber, NASA History Web Curator, the final cost was between $20 and $25 billion.

How much would that be today? If we used the CPI, it would be $150 billion, but this would not be a very good measure since the CPI does not reflect the cost of rockets and launch pads. Using the consumer bundle would not be relevant either. Using the broader based GDP deflator gives a present cost of $122 billion. An alternative would be to use the production worker indicator as a rough measure of the labor cost in current terms and it would be $190 billion. By using the GDP per capita, we are measuring the cost in terms of average product and would get a number of $263 billion. Finally, a way to consider the "opportunity cost" to society, the best measure might be the cost as a percent of GDP, and that number would be $410 billion. This amount over thirteen years would be $30 billion per year. As a comparison, the NASA budget for the current fiscal year is approximately $19 billion.


There aren't too many countries that can afford to spend a total of $410 billion on a space program.
 
HBs not knowing the Ascent Module separated from the Descent Module is a close second.


This aspect of the LM was made part of an in-joke in an early episode of Futurama. Fry and Leela are trapped on the lunar surface, and need to find shelter from the oncoming lunar night. They happen across the landing site of Apollo 11, and clamber up onto the LM and into the safety of its ascent module. In a subsequent interior scene, there's a plaque in the background. It reads, "Lunar lander returned to this site by the Historical Stickler's Society." :D
 
There aren't too many countries that can afford to spend a total of $410 billion on a space program.

This is just it, the real answer to "Why has no one gone back?" is to ask the question "Who do you think should have gone there after Apollo?"

There were/are only four countries really capable of that sort of thing.

1) The USA
2) The Soviet Union/Russia
3) China
4) India

1) The USA - Been there, done that, public aren't interested in going back, thus no political will to do so. Nixon canned it as fast as he could and started the Shuttle Programme. Reagan looked into going back, and rejected it as too costly. Bush II started a programme to go back, and Obama has cancelled it.

Result: USA will not be returning until public and political attitudes change and they are once more willing to fund such a programme.

2) The Soviet Union (Now Russia) - Tried and failed. With four attempts to launch their moon rocket, the N-1, failing, the programme was cancelled and disbanded, the funding diverted to the Space Station Programme. With the Collapse of the USSR, Russia does not have the financial resourses to attempt a mission at this point in time.

Result: Russia will not be reattempting a lunar mission for the forseeable future, or at least until their economic issues are sorted out.

3) China - Currently working towards the goal of a moonlanding in about 2025. Have only launched a limited number of manned flights so simply don't have the experience for a lunar mission at this time.

Result: Likely to be the next country to set foot on the moon. They have both the economy to be able to afford to do it, and having the one party system they have the political will to achieve this.

4) India - This is a stated goal, but at the present time it is more a pipedream with them not even having a man-rated rocket capable of sub-orbital flight.

Result - While they want to do it and likely can get the economy and political will to do it, they are far from even reaching manned spaceflight at the present point in time.

5) ESA & Japan - For completion we should look at these two groups as they also have space programmes. The ESA is not looking at Manned spaceflight currently and so have no plans for lunar landings. Japan is in the same position as India.

Result: No other space faring nation (or group of nations) is currently capable of manned flight, let alone a manned lunar mission.

6) Private Companies - The closest company to a lunar flight has currently only achieved sub-orbital flight. Short of space tourism, there appears to be little commercial gain to doing Lunar Landings at this point in time, so for a company, the return for such a venture simply isn't there. On top of that, few if any companies could afford to fund such an effort by themselves.

Result: No profit in it means little likelihood of private flights to the moon in the forseeable future.

(Note here: Should He3 become a vaiable fuel source in the future, this may change, though most analysts believe that the high cost of recovering it would limit its vaiablity as a fuel in the first place.)

Conclusion: Why has no one else gone to the moon? Because there is no one in a position to do so.
 
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This aspect of the LM was made part of an in-joke in an early episode of Futurama. Fry and Leela are trapped on the lunar surface, and need to find shelter from the oncoming lunar night. They happen across the landing site of Apollo 11, and clamber up onto the LM and into the safety of its ascent module. In a subsequent interior scene, there's a plaque in the background. It reads, "Lunar lander returned to this site by the Historical Stickler's Society." :D

You left out part of the joke:

This aspect of the LM was made part of an in-joke in an early episode of Futurama. Fry and Leela are trapped on the lunar surface, and need to find shelter from the oncoming lunar night. They happen across the landing site of Apollo 11, and clamber up onto the LM and into the safety of its ascent module. ...

Roger yells at the TV: "Hey, the ascent module shouldn't be there!"

.... In a subsequent interior scene, there's a plaque in the background. It reads, "Lunar lander returned to this site by the Historical Stickler's Society." :D

-- Roger
 
6) Private Companies - The closest company to a lunar flight has currently only achieved sub-orbital flight. Short of space tourism, there appears to be little commercial gain to doing Lunar Landings at this point in time, so for a company, the return for such a venture simply isn't there. On top of that, few if any companies could afford to fund such an effort by themselves.

This merits both emphasis and further comment.

I yield to none in my respect for engineers like Burt Rutan and entrepeneurs like Richard Branson, and wholeheartedly wish the Virgin Galactic and other private space tourism operations.

But there's a reason buying a trip to the ISS (as sold by the Russians aboard their Soyuz vehicle) costs 100 times more than going on a suborbital jaunt, and why your trip to the Moon (link ripped off from Corsair115) is about a hundred to a thousand times that. And it's not simply that "government program = expensive, commercial enterprise = inexpensive". It's that it's a lot harder to get into orbit than just a quick ballistic arc on a tourist vehicle - the energy costs are many times greater, and you have to provide thermal protection for reentry. Leaving Earth orbit takes more energy than that, and you have to have a much bigger launcher to haul what you need to the Moon, land on it, and come back. And when you do you're going like a bat out of hell and the reentry protection challenge is that much greater.

All of this adds up to lots and lots of money. And that's why, as PW said, it's been solely the domain of countries to date... and for some time to come.
 
sts60: Thanks for the welcome.
It will be interesting to see if China gets to the moon. Thanks for the link about the radiation belt. I will have to check it out. I have not done a lot of research on this subject but it looks like I will now. Thanks again for the info.

twinstead: Thanks for the thumbs up. LOL


Welcome Gypseagirl. Here is the best site to learn all about moon hoax conspiracism:

www.clavius.org

ETA: I see matt.tansy beat me to it. You might also check out PhantomWolf's site linked in his signature, and possibly Lunar Landing Hoax, which is less technical than Clavius, but highly recommended by Jay Windley, that site's creator.
 
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[I believe this quote ended up in AAH so i repeat it]

For Matt T, Apollo G. and Phantom W. et al.

Nature is a labyrinth in which the very haste you move with will make you lose your way.

Ponder well this ancient wisdom, because if you are not careful the Moon might get tired of waiting and decide to visit Earth. Now wouldn't that be a humiliation!
 
Welcome Gypseagirl. Here is the best site to learn all about moon hoax conspiracism:

www.clavius.org

ETA: I see matt.tansy beat me to it. You might also check out PhantomWolf's site linked in his signature, and possibly Lunar Landing Hoax, which is less technical than Clavius, but highly recommended by Jay Windley, that site's creator.

Thanks for the welcome. I look forward to being a part of the group.
Thanks for the websites I will check them out. :)
 
[I believe this quote ended up in AAH so i repeat it]

For Matt T, Apollo G. and Phantom W. et al.

Nature is a labyrinth in which the very haste you move with will make you lose your way.

Ponder well this ancient wisdom, because if you are not careful the Moon might get tired of waiting and decide to visit Earth. Now wouldn't that be a humiliation!


Quote by Sir Francis Bacon. If you're going to quote someone at least attribute it to the author.

I have yet to see a hoax believer who can differentiate between speculation and evidence. -Me
 
Quote by Sir Francis Bacon. If you're going to quote someone at least attribute it to the author.

I have yet to see a hoax believer who can differentiate between speculation and evidence. -Me

Mmmmm and I can think of some people who don't know the difference between evidence and reality.
 
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