Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Chris_Halkides]

I wasn't equating the positions of the two families; such a position would be ludicrous given that only one of the families has been bereaved.

I don't think Mr Kercher is suggesting that there should be no appeals; I think he is attempting to express the depths of his loss, and explaining that he feels that until the trial and appeals are concluded, he will not be able to properly mourn his daughter. Any attacks on AK's, RS's and Guede's character have not come from the Kerchers other than their belief that the three are guilty.

Is it your position that he should not be permitted to make the few statements he has made? Is it your position that unless he agrees with you, he should not comment? Because that would be an even more "deeply flawed and troubling position" to take.

I am at a loss to understand your problem with the word "mantra". Mr Kercher is using it in the sense of a commonly repeated word or phrase; there is nothing combative about it. Perhaps it is a cultural misunderstanding of which I am unaware.

Agatha,

Let me reply to your opening paragraph by asking you to ssume for a moment that Amanda and Raffaele are innocent yet spend 25-30 years in prison. Their lives will be ruined. They will not be able to have careers; they may be socially ostracized; Ms. Knox will not be able to have biological children. Above all, they will be essentially isolated from their families.

I have never said that Mr. Kercher does not have the right to express himself. However his specific comments on the case are designed to show that there is no good reason to believe that Amanda and Raffaele are innocent, and a few of his statements about the forensics are misleading. This puts the pro-innocence commenters in the unenviable position of letting his articles go unanswered, or being called insensitive to a grieving father.

Let me end by discussing the meaning of the word mantra. Oxford: a statement or slogan repeated frequently. Merriam-Webster: a mystical formula of invocation or incantation (as in Hinduism). This word denotes something outside of rational thought. To me it implies that only by putting oneself into a mystical trance, can one believe that Amanda and Raffaele are innocent. I acknowledge that others may hear it differently.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

They pursued a civil trial concurrent to the trial, which is considered an aggressive act in Italy, where the accused are considered innocent until the final confirmation of the Supreme Court.

It serves to damn the accused in the eyes of the un-sequestered jury.

Kaosium
I assume the Kercher family followed their counsel’s legal advice.

Are you able to provide any independent information that Meredith’s family publicly demonised Raffaele or Amanda during the police investigation or the trial?

Amanda and Raffaele were convicted of Meredith’s murder and sentenced to 25 years, they are entitled in the Italian jurisprudence to two automatic appeals, they could win their appeal in which case they will be released or if they lose their original sentences confirmed.

 

[Kaosium]

Kaosium; over the last thirteen months I have read some amount of posts on this case,some very good ones from people I now have great respect for,your post above is the best I have read so far

Thanks, Billy!

It's still a work in progress though and the real tough stuff was done by countless people before I even knew the names Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. It's lots easier to put together a puzzle when someone gives you all the pieces.

 

[Kaosium]

Actually, the US would extradite them. However, there would be terms in the extradition like all US allies ask for.

I highly doubt it personally, and I don't think Italy would ask very hard either. However reasonable people can disagree.

 

[Kaosium]

Kaosium
I assume the Kercher family followed their counsel’s legal advice.

Are you able to provide any independent information that Meredith’s family publicly demonised Raffaele or Amanda during the police investigation or the trial?

Pursuing the civil part concurrently is inherently hostile and the fact that is available to the jury of the other trial serves to damn the defendants. It is in fact unusual in Italy, and just another odd thing about that justice system that doesn't actually serve the cause of justice in my view. My venom in this regard is directed solely at the Jackal, Maresca, not the family which as you note would follow the advice of the lawyer they hired.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the prosecution also appealed

Amanda and Raffaele were convicted of Meredith’s murder and sentenced to 25 years, they are entitled in the Italian jurisprudence to two automatic appeals, they could win their appeal in which case they will be released or if they lose their original sentences confirmed.

CoulsdonUK,

The prosecutors have appealed for increases in the two sentences.

 

[CDHost]

I am at a loss to understand your problem with the word "mantra". Mr Kercher is using it in the sense of a commonly repeated word or phrase; there is nothing combative about it. Perhaps it is a cultural misunderstanding of which I am unaware.

You may not know what the word mantra means. A mantra is a mystical chant capable of changing reality or inducting a transformation of understanding through its very repetition.

mantra = manas tra = mind instrument i.e. an instrument of the mind.

He doesn't mean that it is just oft repeated but that is is oft repeated for the purpose of inducing a change in perception or reality.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Pursuing the civil part concurrently is inherently hostile and the fact that is available to the jury of the other trial serves to damn the defendants. It is in fact unusual in Italy, and just another odd thing about that justice system that doesn't actually serve the cause of justice in my view. My venom in this regard is directed solely at the Jackal, Maresca, not the family which as you note would follow the advice of the lawyer they hired.

Kaosium

Agree the Italian jurisprudence is different.

I find it extraordinary that someone can be found guilty sentenced then is given two further attempts to prove their innocence, automatically! In addition, even if they lose all their appeals and their conviction and sentenced are confirmed they receive, here’s that word again, automatic reductions in their sentence for good behaviour whilst in prison!

And where are the victim’s rights in all of the above? How does the victim or their family piece their lives back together again?

 

[CDHost]

Oh ok can you provide some independent evidence that supports your assertion [about the Italian government leaking]

Nov 8th 2007:

"The only thing I can say is that at a certain point I heard Meredith screaming," Knox told authorities, according to leaked police reports obtained by Corriere Della Sera, a Milan newspaper.​

Meredith Kercher trial: how angelic student orchestrated 'satanic' murder

Over the following days, a series of leaks from the police suggested that not only had Knox participated in the murder, but she had instigated it, because there was bad blood between her and 21-year-old Miss Kercher following a series of arguments about Knox's promiscuity and her personal hygiene. A court would later be told that Knox was a "she-devil" who led her accomplices in "an unstoppable crescendo of violence".​

Guardian

19 April 2008: Kercher's family attend a closed court hearing in Italy to hear evidence relating to her death after leaks in the Italian media suggest she may not have been sexually assaulted on the night she was murdered.
​

I can keep going but you can google Meredith Kercher and leak as well as I can. There are thousands of articles which talk about the leaks.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

The prosecutors have appealed for increases in the two sentences.

Halides1

Yes the prosecutor’s office have appealed, I believe that means if they lose the automatic reduction in their original sentence cannot be applied.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

And where are the victim’s rights in all of the above? How does the victim or their family piece their lives back together again?

CoulsdonUK,

One might ask the same question about the 1/3 reduction due to a fast-track trial. Its rationale has always been obscure to me. In addition, Frank Sfarzo pointed out the prosecution could have appealed the other reduction in Mr. Guede's sentence (to the Supreme Court, IIUC) but did not. It is curious that they would appeal Mr. Sollecito's and Ms. Knox's sentences but not Mr. Guede's, the only person to have sexual knowledge of the victim, Ms. Kercher.

 

[CDHost]

Kaosium

Agree the Italian jurisprudence is different.

I find it extraordinary that someone can be found guilty sentenced then is given two further attempts to prove their innocence, automatically! In addition, even if they lose all their appeals and their conviction and sentenced are confirmed they receive, here’s that word again, automatic reductions in their sentence for good behaviour whilst in prison!

And where are the victim’s rights in all of the above? How does the victim or their family piece their lives back together again?

I think you would agree that the USA has one of the worst prison systems in the western world, the south east being particular bad. Automatic reductions are not uncommon in many states. You take away reductions and you send the number of rapes and stabbings through the roof.

As for victim's rights. Lets assume that Amanda and Raffaele did it. How much torture is required for the John Kercher to piece his life back together again?

• When Raff gets his front teeth punched out by his cell mate so he can't bite down during forced oral sex, does that do it?
• When 4 guards take Amanda in the back and run a train on her, "so that American bitch learns she's got nothing coming" (or the Italian equivalent) does that do it? What about if they found the first time so much fun they do it 2x a week for a few years?
• When Rudy gets shanked and loses several organs how about then?
• Oh I know maybe Amanda when one of them jumps off the upper stairs to try and kill herself and just succeeds in crippling herself.

Or maybe prison is not the best way for victim's families to put their lives back together.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CDHost

Thank you for the information. However, I assume you are aware the Italian judiciary is independent from the government, as I am sure the current Italian Prime Minister would attest.

Are you aware as part of the investigation prosecutors are legally compelled to appear before a judge or magistrate and provide evidence of an ongoing murder investigation, many of the so called leaks came out of this public legal process attended and no doubt spun by certain sections of the media (sensationalism sells).

What you have provided here is nothing more than the leaks that occur in any high profile murder\investigation reporters in any western country have their sources in the “police”, “DA” or “prosecutor’s office”. Pick any high profile case in the states or the UK for example and you will find leaks.

Nothing of what you write can be attributed to the Kercher family publicly demonising either Amanda or Raffaele.

 

[Draca]

"Amanda Knox: Murder on Trial in Italy" - Extended Preview
http://www.mylifetime.com/movies/amanda-knox-murder-on-trial-in-italy/video

 

[Chris_Halkides]

not entirely an accurate assessment

Nothing of what you write can be attributed to the Kercher family publicly demonising either Amanda or Raffaele.

CoulsdonUK,

Besides the examples I have already noted, here is another. Mr. Kercher wrote, “Sollecito told police there had been no theft. But how could he have known? There is more relating to Knox and Sollecito's constantly changing alibis and witness statements relating to their whereabouts on that night.” For starters, Sollecito was incorrect. There was theft of money and credit cards; therefore, the argument is a nonstarter. More importantly, both Knox and Sollecito have had two basic stories about what happened that night, what they said on the night of 5-6 November and what they said on all other occasions. Mr. Kercher’s words go to the question of their truthfulness, therefore to the question of their characters. In my view he summarized the situation inaccurately.

 

[CDHost]

CDHost

Thank you for the information. However, I assume you are aware the Italian judiciary is independent from the government, as I am sure the current Italian Prime Minister would attest.

OK I'm going to use an American term "branch". The government of Italy has: a judicial branch, a legislative branch and an executive branch headed by a cabinet from the legislative branch.

That's how I'm using the term.

Are you aware as part of the investigation prosecutors are legally compelled to appear before a judge or magistrate and provide evidence of an ongoing murder investigation, many of the so called leaks came out of this public legal process attended and no doubt spun by certain sections of the media (sensationalism sells).

Take a look at the early dates. They weren't public hearings. Heck the police gave a speech on the Nov 7th "case closed". Lets not minimize this, this was a government directed campaign of defamation.

What you have provided here is nothing more than the leaks that occur in any high profile murder\investigation reporters in any western country have their sources in the “police”, “DA” or “prosecutor’s office”. Pick any high profile case in the states or the UK for example and you will find leaks.

I don't know about the UK, but no you would not find that kind of leaking in the USA at all. I'm hard pressed to think of a single example of that sort of leaking being unintentional. This leaking was policy.

I'll give you a US example of this kind of leaking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame_affair

Nothing of what you write can be attributed to the Kercher family publicly demonising either Amanda or Raffaele.

You are shifting ground the same way Agatha did. I accused the Kercher's of supporting a public defamation campaign not of running it. Though as the discussion here shows they have thrown a few punches.

 

[CDHost]

"Amanda Knox: Murder on Trial in Italy" - Extended Preview
http://www.mylifetime.com/movies/amanda-knox-murder-on-trial-in-italy/video

I have to admit, I'm looking forward to that movie. It looks like they are going to show both sides and if 3 1/2 years into this there are two equal sides she's not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

I think you would agree that the USA has one of the worst prison systems in the western world, the south east being particular bad. Automatic reductions are not uncommon in many states. You take away reductions and you send the number of rapes and stabbings through the roof.

As for victim's rights. Lets assume that Amanda and Raffaele did it. How much torture is required for the John Kercher to piece his life back together again?

• When Raff gets his front teeth punched out by his cell mate so he can't bite down during forced oral sex, does that do it?
• When 4 guards take Amanda in the back and run a train on her, "so that American bitch learns she's got nothing coming" (or the Italian equivalent) does that do it? What about if they found the first time so much fun they do it 2x a week for a few years?
• When Rudy gets shanked and loses several organs how about then?
• Oh I know maybe Amanda when one of them jumps off the upper stairs to try and kill herself and just succeeds in crippling herself.

Or maybe prison is not the best way for victim's families to put their lives back together.

CDHost

An emotive post for sure.

May I suggest this; follow the appeal see what evidence is produced try to objectively determine what that may mean in the context of the appeal process. Worst case scenario for Amanda and Raffaele is they walk out of prison in 10 or 12 years probably less, whilst successive generations of the Kercher family visit Meredith’s grave.

Scarred lives verse’s no life.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

John Kercher hasn't been shy about announcing his belief in the ludicrous Massei report, dodgy witnesses, contradictions, illogical leaps of faith and cherrypicking evidence notwithstanding.

It all boils down to money. The Kerchers and Maresca have a big investment in Amanda and Raffaele being found guilty, but mainly Raffaele. He's worth 2 million euros in his own right, and they want it. Hence the opposition to opening up the knife, or anything else aimed at getting to the truth of this case.

I have no doubt the Kerchers would far rather have Meredith back than any sum of money. Maresca is in the courtroom and he is participating. It is reasonable to discuss and critique his words and actions. But let's leave the Kercher family out of it. Please. They have had their loved one savagely murdered and they have had to hear about it on TV and read about it in papers for more than three years now. They are hurting, and we need to leave them alone.

 

[Kaosium]

"Amanda Knox: Murder on Trial in Italy" - Extended Preview
http://www.mylifetime.com/movies/amanda-knox-murder-on-trial-in-italy/video

That looks pretty good from a standpoint of whether Amanda is actually guilty. I like the line where they admit they have no evidence.

However that looks like Hayden playing Hayden, nothing like what I've seen of Amanda.