Chaos Magic

[Nonpareil]

There are volumes of evidence for such events; anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but evidence none the less.

Anecdotes are not evidence. We've been over this.

In any case, the very nature of such reported experiences renders them only communicable via anecdote. The only "proof" one can have of such events would be to experience them firsthand.

Hardly. It's entirely possible to have a verifiable record of the fact that the person could not have known something (e.g., that there was a laptop on top of the shelf) prior to the OBE and did know it afterward.

I understand that you believe that there is evidence of OBEs, but saying that it can't be scientifically tested is silly. It very much can be - and has been.

From what I've read, its been done before and there have been some reported positive results. The real question comes down to whether one chooses to consider such reports trustworthy.

And we don't.

This isn't a matter of anti-psi bias, either. This is a matter of demonstrably flawed methodology, cherry-picking, and other unscientific practices. These studies have been exposed multiple times by multiple people as being flawed.

 

[Hokulele]

Good answer.

Do you agree that this sort of thing can be examined in a scientifically rigorous manner?

I'd recommend looking into reported cases where patients actually purport to have had OBE/NDEs with corroborating claims made my medical staff that were present. Such documented cases do exist and anyone who is genuinely curious can research on them at their leisure. Assuming even a fraction of them are accurate the implications are very interesting, to say the least

No, this doesn't work very well, for reasons that have been noted earlier. In many of the cases where claims match up, the descriptions tend to be vague enough that the medical staff, or the interviewer through leading questions, will often force matches where they may not be warranted. The case that many people like to bring up (the tennis shoe one), there turns out to be no corroborating evidence that the experience happened as described by most people who promote this as a match. The plasticity of memory and the human tendency to want to find answers that "work" will skew results. That is why a properly designed test, such as the one mentioned in the interview I linked, are far more pursuasive than any number of stories told after the fact.

Granted, there are commonalities of experience when it comes to NDEs and OBEs, but at this point in time, there just isn't enough evidence to rule out the possibility that these are simply caused by commonalities in the architecture of the human brain. Ichneumonwasp would know far more about the current state of the field as it relates to this than I would.

 

[Zanders]

We've been over this again and again. OBEs can be tested, and have been tested. You keep making excuses for the lack of evidence for their authenticity by claiming that they either can't be tested, or that everyone is afraid to. You seriously need to stop doing that.

Now, I'm not talking about spontaneous cases like what you claimed happened to you. That is a much more tricky situation.

 

[carlitos]

Substantive replies to AkuManiMani are pointless. If you must reply, just list the logical fallacies and move on.

 

[Zanders]

I just want to throw something out there.

There were tons of anecdotes about werewolves. Many people, even groups claimed that they had seen werewolves. Many people claimed that they were werewolves. Heck, there are anecdotes about werewolves today.

Do werewolves exists? By your logic they do.

 

[PixyMisa]

Exactly. AkuManiMani wants us to accept his story at face value, but by rights we would then need to accept everyone else's stories at face value.

I can't see that working too well.

 

[Zanders]

Well, he also appears to be telling us to take every OBE and NDE at face value.

I'm not even saying it's impossible, I'm just saying it would take more evidence and is testable.

 

[PixyMisa]

That too. The fact that when we test these things, they don't happen, does not mean that we can't test them. It means they don't happen.

 

[Zanders]

I know people like to jump to the conclusion that it is just because mainstream science finds it "taboo", or doesn't want to believe it. But think about this for a moment, most people honestly do beleive or want to believe in a life after death, and there are a ton of scientists that want to as well. It's not like all scientist are forced to be completely materialistic. Unless you are saying that the scientists that carry out such studies are silenced due to it being too controversial.

But like we have said over and over again, tests and experiments have already been done and are still being done.

 

[Sledge]

Now there you make a good point, Zanders. I've always found the "you just don't WANT it to be true" argument to be baffling. I don't want to know that there's something wonderful after death? I don't want to be able to move objects with my mind? I don't want to find there's a good reason for all the bad stuff that happens? Please.

 

[punshhh]

There may be an impasse here due to a lack of corroborative evidence.

Might I describe an experience I had where there was clear evidence that something perhaps a premonition occurred.

You know the kobe earthquake in Japan, well I had a premonition in a dream approximately a week before the earthquake happened.

In my dream I was in a tourist party in Japan being shown around a cave by a local tourist guide. Suddenly there was a a loud noise and a big commotion, parts of the roof of the caved in and I found my self squeezing into a confined space with the guide, who was trying to show me where I would be safe. I woke up suddenly with feelings of claustraphobia.

This was such a striking dream that I told numerous people about it.

A week later the earthquake happened, I was amazed and told the people I had told about the dream, remember that dream I had last week? of three people two remembered and agreed that it was some kind of premonition. The third denied I had said anything, even though I remember telling them.

Now I haven't tried to explain what happened, I let the facts speak for themselves.

Has anyone got any suggestions of what happened here.

 

[Zanders]

Now there you make a good point, Zanders. I've always found the "you just don't WANT it to be true" argument to be baffling. I don't want to know that there's something wonderful after death? I don't want to be able to move objects with my mind? I don't want to find there's a good reason for all the bad stuff that happens? Please.

The only excuse for that would be a conspiracy to hide it's existence from the general public. Now, finding proof of such a thing is another story. But a lot of believers in the paranormal like to use it.

There may be an impasse here due to a lack of corroborative evidence.

Might I describe an experience I had where there was clear evidence that something perhaps a premonition occurred.

You know the kobe earthquake in Japan, well I had a premonition in a dream approximately a week before the earthquake happened.

In my dream I was in a tourist party in Japan being shown around a cave by a local tourist guide. Suddenly there was a a loud noise and a big commotion, parts of the roof of the caved in and I found my self squeezing into a confined space with the guide, who was trying to show me where I would be safe. I woke up suddenly with feelings of claustraphobia.

This was such a striking dream that I told numerous people about it.

A week later the earthquake happened, I was amazed and told the people I had told about the dream, remember that dream I had last week? of three people two remembered and agreed that it was some kind of premonition. The third denied I had said anything, even though I remember telling them.

Now I haven't tried to explain what happened, I let the facts speak for themselves.

Has anyone got any suggestions of what happened here.

I'm not exactly sure what purpose the premonition served, since it helped nobody out. I've heard a lot of stories like this, and can't really come to any conclusions about them. Your dream didn't specifically have an earthquake, so it could very well have been a coincidence. Think about all of the dreams you have, and a coincidental one is bound to happen some time to somebody.

If the earthquake happened the very same time that you had the dream, or on the very next day it would be much more impressive. But also keep in mind, a cave collapsing is not an earthquake.

 

[PixyMisa]

There may be an impasse here due to a lack of corroborative evidence.

Might I describe an experience I had where there was clear evidence that something perhaps a premonition occurred.

You know the kobe earthquake in Japan, well I had a premonition in a dream approximately a week before the earthquake happened.

In my dream I was in a tourist party in Japan being shown around a cave by a local tourist guide. Suddenly there was a a loud noise and a big commotion, parts of the roof of the caved in and I found my self squeezing into a confined space with the guide, who was trying to show me where I would be safe. I woke up suddenly with feelings of claustraphobia.

This was such a striking dream that I told numerous people about it.

A week later the earthquake happened, I was amazed and told the people I had told about the dream, remember that dream I had last week? of three people two remembered and agreed that it was some kind of premonition. The third denied I had said anything, even though I remember telling them.

Now I haven't tried to explain what happened, I let the facts speak for themselves.

They do.

Has anyone got any suggestions of what happened here.

Sure.

You had a dream. It didn't actually predict anything.

A week later the earthquake happened, and you decided that it matched your dream, even though it doesn't.

If you dream the exact date, time, epicentre and magnitude of an earthquake, and publish the results ahead of time - and you're right - then you'll have something.

Right now you have nothing at all.

 

[punshhh]

They do.


Sure.

You had a dream. It didn't actually predict anything.

A week later the earthquake happened, and you decided that it matched your dream, even though it doesn't.

If you dream the exact date, time, epicentre and magnitude of an earthquake, and publish the results ahead of time - and you're right - then you'll have something.

Right now you have nothing at all.

Ahh

Now I know what I would need to attempt the million dollar challenge.

Another dream,

The night before 9/11, I had two dreams where I was in my local airport Heathrow in London.
For some reason I was intensely interested in watching the planes landing and taking off. Both dreams where the same, I very rarely have consecutive dreams the same.

One of the planes a Jumbo Jet came towards me too low. I was somehow fixed on watching this plane, it was getting lower and lower, I was terrified.
The dream became very intense and resulted in a feeling of claustraphobia like in the Kobe dream. I felt I could not escape the crash, when suddenly I was safe it had passed. But continued to to get closer to the ground, I could hear a frightening grinding sound as the pilot was straining at the controls to pull up from the ground. I woke up shaken, with a strange feeling like just after having a close call in a motor accident.

It stayed with me most of the morning and I was continually drawn back to the image of that plane almost scraping the ground.

A few hours later I heard the dreadful events of 9/11 unfolding live on the radio.

I have not before or since had such an intense dream about airplanes.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

More anecdotes, exactly what this thread needs

 

[AkuManiMani]

My memories of the experiences in question are clear, self consistent, and congruent with the recollections of other parties that were involved.

Who else was involved with the actual experience? I understood that the only other person in the room was asleep.

There were two events I recounted; one was the "voice" contact that occurred late last year, and the other was the sleep paralysis/lucid nightmare which occurred a few years ago. In the case of the former account the sleeping friend later corroborated the information given to me by the "voice". The latter story involved my immediate family who, over the phone, were being told details of what I was dreaming.

What you have said is that you were given information by that voice and that you independently verified the information and that you could not have known that information at the time of the experience.

That key part of the evidence is of course unavailable to us since it is of a personal nature.

But my point is that memory is not always reliable. You say that you did not have the information at the time - how can you be sure? Are you sure you are remembering the events correctly?

I spent a large part of my life taking it for granted that the San Marco Bell Tower had collapsed in the mid 80's.

So from where I am sitting there appear two ways I could interpret your description of your experience.

1. Intelligent supernatural communicating with you
2. Hallucination or dream coupled with imperfect recollection.

Since the second is a well attested phenomenon and there has never been any reliable evidence for the first I would naturally look at the second as being the more reasonable interpretation of the events.

And I don't rule out, as I never do, that I could be wrong.

Even assuming that my memory of the information given to me was mistaken the fact that the contents of the memory turned out to be accurate is still anomalous and requires better explanation than simply random factors. I suppose I could seriously try to entertain the possibility that my memory of the event is mistaken but, when ever I do, I find that consideration highly unlikely. I have about as much reason to doubt my recollection of the event in question as I would to doubt my memory of what I wore just yesterday -- perhaps even less so, especially considering the extraordinary and emotionally impactful nature of the latter.

 

[AkuManiMani]

In other words, people have to have such experiences for themselves; especially if they've strong biases toward discounting their possibility. Even then, paradigm shifts tend to be based upon institutional politics and public opinion as much as actual evidence -- if not more so. In any case, there are many other accounts even more anomalous than my own. If even a small fraction of them are accurate then they are, at the very least, highly suggestive that the paradigm in common currency now needs to be updated. Like I said before, I've never harbored any illusions that merely discussing my experiences here was evidence enough to 'prove' their veracity. However, I do think that such accounts open the door to a discussion on epistemology and metaphysical speculation which are both, IMO, fun pastimes

It's fine to speculate, but speculations should be labelled as such, especially when they tend toward the 'wild side'.

This is not an issue of other people experiencing the same thing. All of our subjective experiences are prone to misinterpretation in certain situations, so we must be on guard.

The character 'Ellie' in Contact needed to have that experience within the story frame to bring her closer to her religious friend/paramour. The whole point of staging that scenario was to show a semi-religious subjective experience from a scientific perspective, not to argue that what we all need is to have similar subjective experiences in order to prove another reality. The viewer/reader is still left with a central problem -- did it happen? The only way to resolve the issue is with the strong corroboration -- a physical change that is best explained by Ellie having experienced something for a certain period of time.

If you think that other people just need to experience the same thing, then I am afraid that you are missing the point.

I'm saying that the most compelling evidence a person can have of such experiences is to undergo them themselves. Independent corroboration of information with other parties is part of what makes such phenomena so extraordinary to begin with. The only persons for whom the truth/accuracy of such reports is seriously doubtful would be uninvolved third parties.

[ETA: Coincidentally, a friend of mine who just finished film school was discussing the movie Contact with me very recently. He complained that he was a bit annoyed with how contrived the scenario was in that Jodie Foster's character was stuck with a situation that circumstantially made it appear that her experience was imaginary. His rant was pretty funny ]

 

[carlitos]

Cool Story!

 

[AkuManiMani]

More anecdotes, exactly what this thread needs

Clearly "anecdote" is a euphemism for "fabricated unreliable yarn of bull"; anyone giving such an account is obviously crazy/lying

 

[carlitos]

Next up, "euphemist" and transubstantiation.