Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Alt+F4]

I think it was cut, and that the lack of blood on both parts of the clasp suggests this happened before any wounds were made.

As a bra wearer(?) for a long time I agree with you and Danceme, I also think it was cut.

 

[babycondor]

Which knife?

You're right. It's a zoomed in version of that photo which was taken by the Polizia Scientifica themselves just in case anyone has any ridiculous theories about the photo being doctored or the dirt being added later.

Here are four images of the alleged Knife. I personally wouldn't swear it's the same knife in all four pictures.

1. From PerugiaShock, Dec. 17, 2007


2. From PerugiaShock January 22, 2011




3. From Daily Telegraph January 24, 2011 (and earlier)

 

[el buscador]

I'm in agreement with Danceme on the bra business. The clasp is a separate piece of material, but its purpose is to strengthen the weakest part of the bra - the hook/eye fasteners - and so it's stitched on top of the main fabric of the bra, not attached to the end of it. If it were stitched to the end of the bra strap it would create additional weak points in the strap, not strengthen it. The hook/eye fasteners are stitched both into the clasp, and to the main fabric of the bra beneath it.

Inspired by RW's suggestion, I took an old, no longer worn bra and tested it. I wasn't quite inspired enough to ask my housemate if she'd mind wearing it while I tried to rip it off (thought it might lead to awkward silences over breakfast) so instead I stood on one end of the strap and tried to force the clasp to tear. All that happened is that the strap stretched, a lot. Then I fastened the clasp and tried the same thing, and this is what happened (apologies for poor quality crappy cell phone picture):

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=555&pictureid=4252[/qimg]

The hooks gave way surprisingly easily (perhaps because I could put more force on it than if the person were wearing the bra). IMO, there's just no chance the clasp would give way before the hooks did. I'm not even sure the attacker attempted to tear the bra at all; more likely he just pulled it tight in order to cut it, which caused the hooks to bend.

I think it was cut, and that the lack of blood on both parts of the clasp suggests this happened before any wounds were made.

If you google "bra's ripped off during rape" you will find many stories of women who had this happen to them. I would like to know if there were any bruises around Meredith's mid section compatible with the bra being ripped off. Perhaps we don't have enough information to really determine if the bra was ripped or cut.

 

[Alt+F4]

Here are four images of the alleged Knife. I personally wouldn't swear it's the same knife in all four pictures.

Thanks for posting those photos babycondor. They are similar but I also wouldn't swear it's the same knife in all the photos.

I'm curious as to where Frank got the other three photos from.

 

[CDHost]

I'm in agreement with Danceme on the bra business....

Great post, the argument being made finally clicked for me.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Yeah and at some point he is going to die and RS might inherit. Which is not at all unlikely a quarter century more from now. This was a discussion about attackable assets in an inheritance, Seriously, you need to start reading the thread and not just grabbing lines out of context.

Raffaele and his sister received a substantial inheritance of real property from their mother, which has been locked in escrow ever since his arrest.

 

[katy_did]

If you google "bra's ripped off during rape" you will find many stories of women who had this happen to them. I would like to know if there were any bruises around Meredith's mid section compatible with the bra being ripped off. Perhaps we don't have enough information to really determine if the bra was ripped or cut.

But where did the bras fail when they were ripped off? I would guess that most did so at the hook area (as the one I tried did), not at the fabric of the clasp. I don't disagree at all that a bra could be ripped off, I just think it's very unlikely that it would fail in that particular area.

Great post, the argument being made finally clicked for me.

Thanks.

 

[Chris C]

As a bra wearer(?) for a long time I agree with you and Danceme, I also think it was cut.

Well like I pointed out pages ago, if the bra isn't cut with a bloody knife, then it was cut before the stabbing, which goes against the prosecutions theory on the crime, or it happened with a 3rd knife. Plus if that knife ends up not having blood in the crack which wasn't tested, then you are gonna still need to find 3 more knives.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I think it was cut, and that the lack of blood on both parts of the clasp suggests this happened before any wounds were made.

Your research is interesting, but I'm not sure it has led to an accurate conclusion insofar as what happened to Meredith's bra. The cups of the bra are sprinkled with fine blood drops, aspirated as she struggled to breathe with that terrible wound in her neck. The doors of her wardrobe have the same fine droplets, albeit they are elongated because they were cast onto a vertical surface.

Meredith's bare breasts also revealed this pattern of blood droplets. And the side of the wardrobe, adjacent to where her head lay when her body was found, is likewise sprayed with aspirated droplets.

After struggling with her assailant in the area between her desk and the window, she fell to her knees in front of the wardrobe, and it was there that the assailant inflicted the fatal wound to her neck, which immediately caused copious bleeding on the floor. The bloodstains show that she was on her hands and knees for a few moments, struggling to crawl. Her left hand was covered with blood when she was found, presumably because she held it to her throat at this time while propping herself up on her right hand.

When she collapsed, the killer began the activity that culminated in some kind of sexual assault. He dragged her, face down, using her blue fleece jacket as a handle. It started to come off, so he removed it completely and dropped it where it was found, in front of the wardrobe. He dragged her until her head was on the left side of the wardrobe closet. It was then that he removed her bra and rolled her onto her back. She was still gasping for breath, but she was no longer capable of resisting the assault.

As to the question of whether the backstrap of the bra was cut or ripped apart, I could go either way, although I tend to believe Hendry because his analysis is so grounded in observable details. I do believe strongly that the disrobing of the victim and the sexual assault only began after she was incapacitated from the knife wounds. It is the only scenario that fits the overall pattern of evidence.

It would be interesting to use a knife to cut through a piece of fabric similar to the bra fastener, and then compare the appearance of the cut edge to the high-res photos of the bra fastener.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

reference footprints

This is said over and over on this forum with no proof that it is at all true. In Darkness Descending it says footprints and fingerprints were taken from all roommates and the investigators. Who is correct?

Mark Waterbury made the claim that no reference footprints were taken from Meredith, Laura, or Filomena. I thought that Meredith's print was taken, but I am not sure. Charlie may have commented on this at some point.

 

[RoseMontague]

Mark Waterbury made the claim that no reference footprints were taken from Meredith, Laura, or Filomena. I thought that Meredith's print was taken, but I am not sure. Charlie may have commented on this at some point.

My understanding was fingerprints but not footprints or DNA samples.

 

[Chris C]

My understanding was fingerprints but not footprints or DNA samples.

Plus to the best of my knowledge they didn't take fingerprints or dna from the last person other than Rudy to admit to seeing her alive. There should have been dna samples taken from all those girls. Plus to top that off, Rudy claims a female that spoke english rang the doorbell. A female that knew Meredith, spoke English and apparently didn't have a key. Regardless if you dont believe those friends of hers killed her, when someone makes that claim you still get reference samples. Its just one more example of the Flying Stooges dropping the ball.

 

[RoseMontague]

Interesting article here and if the quotes are accurate Amanda is not holding back her feelings about Curatolo:

"The homeless? È un bugiardo», dice Amanda a proposito della nuova testimonianza di Antonio Curatolo, che già nel primo processo disse di aver visto lei e Raffaele vicino alla casa di via della Pergola nella notte in cui fu uccisa Mez. He is a liar, "Amanda says about the new testimony of Antonio Curatolo, already in the first trial said they saw her and Raffaele near the house on Via della Pergola on the night he was killed Mez. «Dice solo bugie e sono contenta che la corte potrà rendersi conto dal vivo della scarsa attendibilità di quest'uomo. "He says all lies and I'm glad that the court may live to realize the unreliability of this man. È un bugiardo, ripeto. He is a liar, again. E con la nuova testimonianza potrà dimostrare solo questo». And with the new testimony can only prove that. "

http://translate.google.com/transla...php?id=35949&sez=HOME_INITALIA&npl=&desc_sez=

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

This is said over and over on this forum with no proof that it is at all true. In Darkness Descending it says footprints and fingerprints were taken from all roommates and the investigators. Who is correct?

Page 377 of Darkness Descending quotes Garofano as follows:

"But I didn't see who else they compared the prints with. Just Rudy, Amanda and Raffaele? So we only have a choice between those? We don't have the footprint of other women or men, as a comparison? Pity."

This comports with Rinaldi's analysis, which I have posted on the FOA site:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/rinaldi1.pdf
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/rinaldi2.pdf

The only reference footprints are those of the three suspects.

The police did reference fingerprints, however. The fingerprint map has been on the FOA site for months, and I have posted the link several times:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/cottage_fingerprint_map.gif

You can see that it is indexed for the suspects, Meredith, the other housemates, and Meredith's boyfriend.

For the record I also think he's wrong on the boots under the bed as I posted before.

What is he wrong about? These boots, which were wet with blood and were next to Meredith's head in the Nov. 2-3 photos, were in fact under the bed in the December 18 photos.

What is his motivation for making these conclusions which clearly defy all logic? Is it incompetence perhaps? After all, lots of other experts have been accused of such.

Ron Hendry is not correct on several things I've already noted. I agree, his view is worth no more than one of ours. I see several things very differently than he does and in my opinion it is Ron Hendry who is wrong.

Yes, you dismiss Ron Hendry just as you dismiss Dr. Michael Baden. You may well believe "Kermit" is the only reliable forensic authority with regard to this case. But I would suggest that rejecting the analysis of credentialed experts like Baden, Hendry, Moore, Ciolino, and John Douglas, simply because they don't tell you what you want to hear, is not a path to enlightenment.

 

[Danceme]

I'm in agreement with Danceme on the bra business.

Thank you katy_did, excellent experiment btw.

Your research is interesting, but I'm not sure it has led to an accurate conclusion insofar as what happened to Meredith's bra.

<snip>

As to the question of whether the backstrap of the bra was cut or ripped apart, I could go either way, although I tend to believe Hendry because his analysis is so grounded in observable details.

Hendry's used photographs to conduct his analysis, not the actual fabric. You have read the arguments by myself and katy_did which are grounded in observable facts about bras, as well as a long history in wearing and handling them, with an actual experiment thrown in and you still cannot believe Hendry can be wrong about this. A bra clasp simply cannot be torn off at this point Charlie.

What is he wrong about? These boots, which were wet with blood and were next to Meredith's head in the Nov. 2-3 photos, were in fact under the bed in the December 18 photos.

I think he is wrong about the boots under the bed being the same pair that Meredith's head rested on in a pool of blood. Rinaldi's report shows another pair of boots which Meredith owned which resemble those under the bed more closely IMO. Show me a much higher resolution photo which proves they are indeed one and the same and I'll believe it. In the photos on Bruce's site they look more like her other pair of boots.

Yes, you dismiss Ron Hendry just as you dismiss Dr. Michael Baden. You may well believe "Kermit" is the only reliable forensic authority with regard to this case. But I would suggest that rejecting the analysis of credentialed experts like Baden, Hendry, Moore, Ciolino, and John Douglas, simply because they don't tell you what you want to hear, is not a path to enlightenment.

I'm pretty sure I've never suggested Kermit is "the only reliable forensic authority with regard to this case" or anything even remotely close to that. In fact the only time I think I referred to Kermit was to correct him on a dimension of the window frame he made in a post here long ago.
As far as what others write, experts or not, I believe what makes sense to me. Hendry's claim on the bra clasp doesn't, and in this regard I think I know a little more than him about bras.
As far as the others you mentioned, I don't think I've ever referenced either one in a single post. Hardly fair.

 

[Dan O.]

As to the question of whether the backstrap of the bra was cut or ripped apart, I could go either way, although I tend to believe Hendry because his analysis is so grounded in observable details. I do believe strongly that the disrobing of the victim and the sexual assault only began after she was incapacitated from the knife wounds. It is the only scenario that fits the overall pattern of evidence.

It would be interesting to use a knife to cut through a piece of fabric similar to the bra fastener, and then compare the appearance of the cut edge to the high-res photos of the bra fastener.

Back in November I posted:

The evidence shows that the bra was removed after a major wound was inflicted and before death. The cutting of the strap however may have occurred before blood was drawn and is possibly evidenced by the fact that there is little blood at the site of the cut.

The cut is coincidentally at the location where the hook part is stitched to the strap. This is a weak point where the strap would fail if it were stressed to the point of failure. The characteristic of a cut cord or strap is that all the fibers remain lined up with an even cut through them. A stress failure has the weakest fiber break and snap back into the bundle then the next fiber breaks etc.. The result is an uneven break with a tangle at the end. It should have been easy for the crack team from Rome to figure out that the strap was cut but I won't guarantee they got this right.

Do we have a high enough resolution image of the cut portion to make this determination?

 

[Danceme]

BTW, the reference to elimination prints being taken is on page 36 of Darkness Descending. I can't seem to copy it but it says Stefanoni ordered elimination finger and footprints from the first responder, battistelli, the ambulance crew, all the residents and their boyfriends so that later they could be compared with the traces found in the room and excluded from the list of suspects.

 

[Chris C]

BTW, the reference to elimination prints being taken is on page 36 of Darkness Descending. I can't seem to copy it but it says Stefanoni ordered elimination finger and footprints from the first responder, battistelli, the ambulance crew, all the residents and their boyfriends so that later they could be compared with the traces found in the room and excluded from the list of suspects.

So either they didn't take the reference footprints, or they didn't hand them over to the defense. Heres a pic of the boots.
1st is Spheron,
2nd is side view of bed on Nov 2nd.
3rd is side view on bed Dec 18th.
4th close up boots Nov 2nd.
5th blood location under bed.

 

[Kaosium]

Ah, the reverse ferret! The phrase is the inspired invention of legendary tabloid editor Kelvin Mackenzie:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_ferret

"Stick a ferret up their trousers!" LOL!

Great line! It would be nice if someone would stick one of those overgrown rats in Mignini's pants. Or those eight policemen. Ferrets all around, I say!

I too try to get a balanced view - I read both right-wing and left-wing newspapers, and scan a wide variety of weeklies and periodicals. I of course also subscribe to Private Eye, which may well be the last remaining true bastion of good investigative journalism with no political agenda (as well as being frequently very amusing).

Is that a British-only publication? It sounds familiar somehow, although perhaps I'm confusing it with 'Spy' which was a trendy mag here for a while.

Here's our contribution to the world of 'investigative journalism.' It's all grown up and become big time and moved to New York City, but they remember their roots and we still get our own 'special edition.'

There's sometimes more truth in satire.

 

[Fine]

So either they didn't take the reference footprints, or they didn't hand them over to the defense. Heres a pic of the boots.
1st is Spheron,
2nd is side view on Nov 2nd.
3rd is side view on Dec 18th.

______________________________________
Chris,

I believe your second photograph is NOT a photograph of Merdith's boots. It's a photograph of a shopping bag. Here's a close-up of the same image....

///