Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[LondonJohn]

The truly saddest thing is he could get away with that because of the conditions created by the police leaks and tabloid smears. I came across another one recently that I had missed the first time around or had forgotten about. It was a piece by Nick Pisa that relied on leaks of conversations between Amanda and her mother, at the jail I presume. It was based on the fact that Amanda had said that her cellmate and a 'warder,' which I figure is probably some kind of guard, had propositioned her for sex because 'she was so pretty.' Yet it was spun as Amanda being narcissistic for daring to be frightened that she might be sexually abused in the prison.

There was something going on there in Perugia I think, a zeitgeist of sorts where they created a monster in their minds and Amanda wasn't even human and thus everything they came across had to be more 'evidence' of 'Foxy Knoxy' if they 'read between the lines.' I notice Pisa's more recent pieces are more insightful, I wonder if he feels anything like Shirer did when he looked back at his reporting of Hitler's receiving the 'blank check' from the homeless Reichstadt?

I think Pisa is a common-or-garden hack, who will write anything he thinks has a chance of publication. He's therefore always looking for the prevailing zeitgeist, and tailors his copy accordingly. When it was expedient for him to be writing pieces critical of Knox and Sollecito, that's what he wrote. Now it looks like the "fightback" is the story people are interested in, that's the tone he's taken.

Never forget that Pisa is a freelance stringer, who gets paid per article. So is Vogt. So is Nadeau. I think they all write what they think will get them the biggest paycheck. I don't necessarily blame them for that - they are just trying to earn a decent living. But I wouldn't trust a word that any of them write in a freelance capacity - the remuneration system is heavily biased against objective, balanced, sober reportage.

 

[Chris C]

I don't think the head looks big enough for a motorcycle helmet, but perhaps some kind of billed hat?

Well there is definately some kinda face covering, because if you watch closely, there is a black object from about the nose down covering the persons face. Also at the 21 second mark, you can just see the edge of a white face, with what appears to be goggles on. Though isn't that video from a different camera and not the one by the driveway.

 

[CDHost]

_______________________
It's ambiguous in Raffaele's Diary just where Raffaele is supposed to have pricked Meredith with the knife. But his father says explicitly that the event happened at the cottage..............
... A fact that the doctor explained that "to know for sure."
///

That is interesting. How could he know that "for sure"? But that makes for very interesting evidence because

If that knife did travel back and forth, and Meredith used the knife we know the kind of contamination is consistent with saliva.... We are back to the knife being evidence of nothing. I wish I understood the full scope of the appeal. There is a lot more evidence I thought the defense wanted to address.

 

[RWVBWL]

I don't know about US bra design, but I looked at three M&S* bras today, and in all three there is a distinctly separate piece of material on the hook side of the clasp, which is stitched to the back strap. In other words, the material on which the hook is mounted is totally different from the material of the main back strap - it's not merely a loop-and-stitch reinforcement of the back strap. There is a clear stitching joint.

From the photos, Meredith's bra clearly looks to have a similar design. To me, therefore, it's entirely possible that the hook material was torn free from the main back strap at the point of stitching, rather than cut free.

* M&S (Marks & Spencer) is by a massive distance the major retailer of underwear (men's and women's) in the UK.

Hi LondonJohn and others,
If Meredith Kercher were still alive as her bra clasp was cut off, might she have slight knife punture wounds in that same area from her body twisting and turning during a struggle? Does anyone know if she did so?

 

[LondonJohn]

Hi LondonJohn and others,
If Meredith Kercher were still alive as her bra clasp was cut off, might she have slight knife punture wounds in that same area from her body twisting and turning during a struggle? Does anyone know if she did so?

If she were on her hands and knees, and if the strap was cut off with the blade of the knife cutting back away from the body, then I doubt it. However, having seen the close-up photos, I think that it's more likely that the bra was ripped open, and failed at the point where the hook side of the clasp is stitched to the back strap.

Incidentally, I wonder what the autopsy report has to say about any marks or bruising around Meredith's torso, which may well have been caused when the bra was forcefully tugged and manipulated. Given that it looks likely that the bra was manipulated while Meredith was still alive (but dying), one would expect some bruising lines where the strap cut into her skin. I guess we'd need to see the whole autopsy report to see if such bruising was present.

 

[Kaosium]

I am reminded of this phrase:
When rational people discover new facts, they revise their beliefs to fit these new facts.
Have you folks given any possible thought that Meredith was followed, accosted, and then killed by someone other than Rudy Guede?
Or are you like the police investigators who worked the Kercher murder case, sticking to the same old facts because you feel that you know what happened?

I remember that there came a point that it occurred to me that it would be easier to make a rational case for Rudy Guede being innocent of murder than it would Amanda and Raffaele being guilty of it, especially when the peripherals are considered, as you do here. To go along with what you noted I also recall coming across something reposted recently on the Shock where someone who had either been in Perugia around the time of the murder or had known someone who had posted something early in the case, on Dempsey's blog I think, an account of a drug ring in Perugia at the time they thought might be connected to the case.

Here's the thing though: the police certainly didn't want to find Rudy Guede's traces at the scene when the forensics came in, yet they announced within a week of the arrest they were looking for 'a North African man' which eventually turned out to be Rudy. Had someone else actually been there with Rudy they should have found something of his as well, especially if he was actually the one who committed the murder.

Thus they would have had to completely cover up the traces of this other person, however that involves the Rome police covering up for the Perugian ones and while I realize Italian police are national in nature, it just seems to me improbable that sort of collusion would occur for someone else when it didn't for Rudy Guede's whose involvement would become embarrassing for the police in Perugia as well.

I can't tell from that video whether that guy is black or white, just that something around the head doesn't look like what I've seen of Rudy's short afro. Could it be a head-covering of some sort? I can't tell.

 

[Justinian2]

A 1978 AMC Gremlin had an owner's manual, I'd rather a '78 Pontiac Trans Am without one. The latter might cost too much, be too flashy and get you into trouble too, but it's a classic that actually runs and five years from now will be on the road, whereas all of the former will probably be in the junkyard...

Seriously though, I do think the concept of motivation reports is a good idea.

Seems like the Italian system produces a better appeal.
However, Amanda's original trial was seriously lacking.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

not exactly a hobby

It seems like a pretty crappy hobby to me.

dtugg,

Forensic chemistry is just applied analytical chemistry or applied biochemistry. Although I have not yet been asked to teach forensic chemistry, there is a good chance I will be in the future. This has also been a great way to learn some forensic chemistry that I can use to spice up my lectures in other areas.

 

[Kaosium]

I think Pisa is a common-or-garden hack, who will write anything he thinks has a chance of publication. He's therefore always looking for the prevailing zeitgeist, and tailors his copy accordingly. When it was expedient for him to be writing pieces critical of Knox and Sollecito, that's what he wrote. Now it looks like the "fightback" is the story people are interested in, that's the tone he's taken.

Has the 'ferret turned?' How did you put that? You cracked me up with that the first time.

At any rate I think it's an excellent sign regarding the eventual freedom of Raffaele and Amanda.

Never forget that Pisa is a freelance stringer, who gets paid per article. So is Vogt. So is Nadeau. I think they all write what they think will get them the biggest paycheck. I don't necessarily blame them for that - they are just trying to earn a decent living. But I wouldn't trust a word that any of them write in a freelance capacity - the remuneration system is heavily biased against objective, balanced, sober reportage.

That certainly makes sense as well, and I too decry the lack of the latter in media, which is why if I'm interested in something I liked to read from as many different sources as I can. Once I came across a sweet deal from a clearinghouse on magazines and it was so good I kinda went overboard. I eventually ended up with subscriptions to The New Republic, The Atlantic Monthly, US News and World Report, Newsweek, The Progressive, The Nation, National Review, The Weekly Standard, George, and Human Events.

I do believe my mailman hated me, and if he was aware of the slants of the above publications probably figured I was a very confused individual. Maybe he was right, but having a point of view myself I had to know what the 'Bad Guys' were up to too!

 

[Alt+F4]

My understanding is that Francesco Sollecito told the court that Raffaele had already inherited properties from his mother in order to show that he had no reason to steal money from MK. His mother died when he was a teenager.

I've seen posts online that the property is worth a lot - in the 2 million Euro range, but don't know if that's the correct figure.

Do you have a cite for this? It was my understanding that his mother died when he was younger than a teenager. Also, he probably would not be legally allowed to inherite property if under 18.

 

[Danceme]

Your argument is convincing.

So then, assuming the bra was cut at the clasp, was the knife bloody when the cut was made (based on the pictures we have seen)?

The knife couldn't have been too bloody. Perhaps it was cut after either one or both of the much smaller stabs were made which might have only left blood on the tip of the knife. He then used the broader part of the blade under the strap to cut it. He then turned her over to take it off by grabbing the front of the bra, tearing the shoulder straps with the effort. She is struggling madly now so he makes the fatal stab which causes blood to spray over the cups of the bra just before he yanks it off. This would account for only minor amounts of blood on the clasp but my theory must have gaping holes in logic because everything else seems to that anyone tries to find succinct explanations for

Otherwise how do you explain all the funds expended by the Kerchers' to pay Maresca's fees?

I thought Maresca was working pro bono.

I'm not arguing that the fabric was torn. It was the seam that let go.

From the bra clasp photos it looks like it was exactly a separate piece. I guess there are various designs. Looking at the bra clasp the straight line doesn't look like a result of cutting to me. It coincides with the seams, with leftover pieces of thread clearly visible. Looking at the strap where the clasp is missing I see a hem line exactly where you think there is a straight cut.


Honestly in the pic it looks like a separate piece sewn onto the strap, too.

I think Meredith's bra size being on the smaller side, was not that "reinforced". It let go easily enough to not leave any persistent marks on her body. It was torn off after the stabbing, not cut, that's why it is soaked with blood but there are no traces of cutting it with a bloody knife.

There is a separate piece, the piece of fabric containing the hooks, but it is sewn on top of the backstrap end. Some bras also have an additional piece of fabric sewn in this location on the front side of the clasp area too, as reinforcement. I checked all of mine and my daughter's bras, she's the same size as Meredith more or less (120 pounds, b-cup) and they are all done the same way at the clasp. I tugged hard at the backstraps and it seems impossible to imagine it would give way at this juncture while someone was wearing it. The force would have to be enormous.

If only we could see the actual material for ourselves, but in the long run I guess it's just a small point and has no bearing on anything.

I don't know about US bra design, but I looked at three M&S* bras today, and in all three there is a distinctly separate piece of material on the hook side of the clasp, which is stitched to the back strap. In other words, the material on which the hook is mounted is totally different from the material of the main back strap - it's not merely a loop-and-stitch reinforcement of the back strap. There is a clear stitching joint.

From the photos, Meredith's bra clearly looks to have a similar design. To me, therefore, it's entirely possible that the hook material was torn free from the main back strap at the point of stitching, rather than cut free.

* M&S (Marks & Spencer) is by a massive distance the major retailer of underwear (men's and women's) in the UK.

Yes, as I wrote above, the hook piece is a separate piece sewn onto the end of the backstrap and illustrated in the picture I linked to. If there was a seam where a separate fabric-with-hooks piece were joined to the end of the backstrap I can see how it could definitely give way under force. However the design of this part of a bra, which seems universal, has this piece sewn over the backstrap, making it much much more difficult. I can see why he just decided to hack it off.
But like I said, this is a small point and we've probably said all we can without being able to scrutinize the actual piece ourselves.

Also, I would tend to believe the ILE on this. There's no merit to saying it was cut off if the fabric had simply given way with the effort. Anyone actually looking at both the bra and the clasp piece could tell the difference.

 

[Draca]

Meredith's lawyer still dreams to put his Florentine hands.

Do you have a cite for this? It was my understanding that his mother died when he was younger than a teenager. Also, he probably would not be legally allowed to inherite property if under 18.

June 19, 2009
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/06/amandas-mother-takes-stand.html

Meredith's lawyer Maresca was damn right when he told me he had information about the defendants' possessions he could attack one day. We don't know about Amanda but Raffaele's dad --in order to explain why he wouldn't need to steal Meredith's money-- revealed today that his son owns several properties he inherited from his mother. Properties on which Meredith's lawyer still dreams to put his Florentine hands.

 

[LondonJohn]

Has the 'ferret turned?' How did you put that? You cracked me up with that the first time.

Ah, the reverse ferret! The phrase is the inspired invention of legendary tabloid editor Kelvin Mackenzie:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_ferret

At any rate I think it's an excellent sign regarding the eventual freedom of Raffaele and Amanda.


That certainly makes sense as well, and I too decry the lack of the latter in media, which is why if I'm interested in something I liked to read from as many different sources as I can. Once I came across a sweet deal from a clearinghouse on magazines and it was so good I kinda went overboard. I eventually ended up with subscriptions to The New Republic, The Atlantic Monthly, US News and World Report, Newsweek, The Progressive, The Nation, National Review, The Weekly Standard, George, and Human Events.

I do believe my mailman hated me, and if he was aware of the slants of the above publications probably figured I was a very confused individual. Maybe he was right, but having a point of view myself I had to know what the 'Bad Guys' were up to too!

I too try to get a balanced view - I read both right-wing and left-wing newspapers, and scan a wide variety of weeklies and periodicals. I of course also subscribe to Private Eye, which may well be the last remaining true bastion of good investigative journalism with no political agenda (as well as being frequently very amusing).

 

[RWVBWL]

I remember that there came a point that it occurred to me that it would be easier to make a rational case for Rudy Guede being innocent of murder than it would Amanda and Raffaele being guilty of it, especially when the peripherals are considered, as you do here. To go along with what you noted I also recall coming across something reposted recently on the Shock where someone who had either been in Perugia around the time of the murder or had known someone who had posted something early in the case, on Dempsey's blog I think, an account of a drug ring in Perugia at the time they thought might be connected to the case.

Here's the thing though: the police certainly didn't want to find Rudy Guede's traces at the scene when the forensics came in, yet they announced within a week of the arrest they were looking for 'a North African man' which eventually turned out to be Rudy. Had someone else actually been there with Rudy they should have found something of his as well, especially if he was actually the one who committed the murder.
Thus they would have had to completely cover up the traces of this other person, however that involves the Rome police covering up for the Perugian ones and while I realize Italian police are national in nature, it just seems to me improbable that sort of collusion would occur for someone else when it didn't for Rudy Guede's whose involvement would become embarrassing for the police in Perugia as well.

I can't tell from that video whether that guy is black or white, just that something around the head doesn't look like what I've seen of Rudy's short afro. Could it be a head-covering of some sort? I can't tell.

Hi Kaosium,
I recall reading a long time ago on Perugia Shock that there were 13 unattributed fingerprints found in the gals apartment.

"Anyone else?
Among the 13 unattributed fingerprints only 4 were found in Meredith's room. 2 on a little calendar and 2 on the door. So not really central locations. But 4 is still an important number if we consider that the main actor left only one. Will they ever find an owner?"

Link here:
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/05/attack-to-police.html

I wonder if they ever did further testing to see if they could find out whose fingerprints these might have been?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Gosh reading most of these posts takes me back to Candace Dempsey blog on SeattlePI, I recall reading those post thinking the defence might have a case. The defence never showed! I wonder how the appeal will unfold once it actually starts; witnesses, evidence etc.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi all,
I am passing along a couple of links to Frank Sfarzo's original Perugia Shock story on court findings about that huuuge knife:

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/05/finding-36-and-other-catastrophies-part.html

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/05/finding-36.html

 

[billyryan]

Gosh reading most of these posts takes me back to Candace Dempsey blog on SeattlePI, I recall reading those post thinking the defence might have a case. The defence never showed! I wonder how the appeal will unfold once it actually starts; witnesses, evidence etc.

The defence showed up alright but misfortunately the press left, the jury nodded off to sleep, and the judge made phone calls.

I'd say as far as the press is concerned anyway they have heard enough lies from the prosecution,they ain't going to be fooled twice

 

[katy_did]

I'm in agreement with Danceme on the bra business. The clasp is a separate piece of material, but its purpose is to strengthen the weakest part of the bra - the hook/eye fasteners - and so it's stitched on top of the main fabric of the bra, not attached to the end of it. If it were stitched to the end of the bra strap it would create additional weak points in the strap, not strengthen it. The hook/eye fasteners are stitched both into the clasp, and to the main fabric of the bra beneath it.

Inspired by RW's suggestion, I took an old, no longer worn bra and tested it. I wasn't quite inspired enough to ask my housemate if she'd mind wearing it while I tried to rip it off (thought it might lead to awkward silences over breakfast) so instead I stood on one end of the strap and tried to force the clasp to tear. All that happened is that the strap stretched, a lot. Then I fastened the clasp and tried the same thing, and this is what happened (apologies for poor quality crappy cell phone picture):

The hooks gave way surprisingly easily (perhaps because I could put more force on it than if the person were wearing the bra). IMO, there's just no chance the clasp would give way before the hooks did. I'm not even sure the attacker attempted to tear the bra at all; more likely he just pulled it tight in order to cut it, which caused the hooks to bend.

I think it was cut, and that the lack of blood on both parts of the clasp suggests this happened before any wounds were made.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

The defence showed up alright but misfortunately the press left, the jury nodded off to sleep, and the judge made phone calls.

I'd say as far as the press is concerned anyway they have heard enough lies from the prosecution,they ain't going to be fooled twice

Well I guess we'll see. I really thought the defence was very poor during the trial, well based on all the posts I use to read on Candace Dempsey's blog.

 

[Alt+F4]

June 19, 2009
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/06/amandas-mother-takes-stand.html

Thanks for the link Draca.

I wonder why Papa Doc would even bring this up. Financial gain wasn't part of the prosecution's case in regard to his son.