Israel tears down 80 year old hotel to make way for Jews ONLY

[Thunder]

As I said a few weeks ago, I can tolerate very religious groups wanting to set up their own communities, far away from major metropolitan areas. That way their need for isolation and seclusion is less-likely to discriminate against people looking for a place to live.

But in a big city..with millions of people? No, that ain't cool. Its hard enough to be able to afford a home or rent these days, and the last thing people should have to face is religious discrimination.

And if we do allow religious discrimination in large apartment buildings, how religious do the people have to be? Would they qualify if the residents only go to church one a week? Once a month? What if some are kosher but some are not? What if the Muslims pray 5 times a day..but not ever day?

The whole idea of allowing discrimination in large housing complexes and neighborhoods is just undemocratic and unethical.

But fine..if you insist on being secluded segregationist, arrogant and have a superiority complex over your fellow man...fine. But do it far away from everyone else.

 

[WildCat]

I am somewhat familiar with California laws regarding this kind of thing and any attempt to restrict the sale of rental or real estate to any particular ethnic group would be illegal unless some kind of exception could be found.

What I don't know, is what kinds of exceptions allow the operation of convents, monasteries and other kinds of religiously oriented habitations. If there is an exception it probably would be the exception that allows for that kind of thing. If there isn't a specific legal exception that allows for them to exclude non-adherents then I wonder if they could be subject to discrimination based lawsuits and other legal difficulties if somebody wanted to press the issue.

But here's how it works in practice: the development is in the middle of an ultra-orthodox neighborhood. These units will be much more atractive to ultra-orthodox Jews than any other ethnic group, and would attract by far the most interest from them. Even assuming the lottery is 100% fair and unbiased (and I have no reason to assume it isn't) I expect 80+% of the entrants to be from ultra-orthodox Jews currently livig in the area or from the larger ultra-orthodox community, and the winners will reflect that. I also wouldn't be surprised if there's more turnover of the units not rented by ultra-orthodox Jews, which would cause the development to become closer to 100% ultra-orthodox Jewish over time.

 

[davefoc]

I tried to find articles that dealt with the issue of allowed discrimination in the US based on a goal of religious or ethnic homogeneity in a dwelling.

What I found was this:
From this site discussing housing discrimination based on religion laws:
http://www.housing.org/pdf_docs/Religion Discrimination.pdf

What if a church wants to limit residency in its retreat center to its own members?
The fair housing laws have an exception that allows a religious organization or a non-profit controlled by that organization, to limit occupancy in its buildings to members of the same religion. However, the residency in the buildings must have a purpose other than money-making. The laws also require that, in order to use this exception, the religion cannot restrict membership on the basis of race, color, or national origin.


From this article that describes itself as "FAIR HOUSING ADVERTISING MANUAL":
http://www.fairhousingadvocates.com/advertising.pdf

Religious Groups. A limited exception allows religious groups or organizations to advertise:
* Housing they operate on a noncommercial basis,
* Can state a preference for or limitation to members of their religion
* If the religious group does not discriminate on the basis of race, color or national origin

So, it seems like the kind of religious discrimination described as occurring in Israel in this thread might be legal in the US if certain conditions are met. It seems like the housing would need to be owned by a religious group and operated on a non-commercial basis.

 

[mortimer]

I tried to find articles that dealt with the issue of allowed discrimination in the US based on a goal of religious or ethnic homogeneity in a dwelling.

What I found was this:
From this site discussing housing discrimination based on religion laws:
http://www.housing.org/pdf_docs/Religion Discrimination.pdf

What if a church wants to limit residency in its retreat center to its own members?
The fair housing laws have an exception that allows a religious organization or a non-profit controlled by that organization, to limit occupancy in its buildings to members of the same religion. However, the residency in the buildings must have a purpose other than money-making. The laws also require that, in order to use this exception, the religion cannot restrict membership on the basis of race, color, or national origin.


From this article that describes itself as "FAIR HOUSING ADVERTISING MANUAL":
http://www.fairhousingadvocates.com/advertising.pdf

Religious Groups. A limited exception allows religious groups or organizations to advertise:
* Housing they operate on a noncommercial basis,
* Can state a preference for or limitation to members of their religion
* If the religious group does not discriminate on the basis of race, color or national origin

So, it seems like the kind of religious discrimination described as occurring in Israel in this thread might be legal in the US if certain conditions are met. It seems like the housing would need to be owned by a religious group and operated on a non-commercial basis.

Interesting. Thanks for finding that.

 

[Thunder]

American federal law aside, the fact that they are tearing down property in East Jerusalem to build housing that ONLY Jews can live in, is highly controversial...and extremaly ill-advised.

such actions don't build confidence in anyone, that Israel is interested in peace.

 

[The Fool]

Apartheid in new shoes....

 

[Thunder]

Apartheid in new shoes....

no, Israeli Apartheid is called "Hafrada".

it means separation.

 

[Mycroft]

Apartheid in new shoes....

So now you're claiming the United States is apartheid?

 

[WildCat]

So now you're claiming the United States is apartheid?

Australia too: http://www.ahvic.org.au/

Apartheid in new shoes.

 

[Mycroft]

Australia too: http://www.ahvic.org.au/

Apartheid in new shoes.

So I'm gonna guess that "apartheid" in old shoes would be something like Arab-only housing in East Jerusalem.

Be interesting to hear why that doesn't count either.

 

[PhantomWolf]

So I'm gonna guess that "apartheid" in old shoes would be something like Arab-only housing in East Jerusalem.

Be interesting to hear why that doesn't count either.

That's apartheid too. See when it's Jews living apart it's because they are being discrimatory and evil, but when it is the arabs living apart it's becauce the Jews make them because the Jews are being discrimatory and evil.

 

[a_unique_person]

That's apartheid too. See when it's Jews living apart it's because they are being discrimatory and evil, but when it is the arabs living apart it's becauce the Jews make them because the Jews are being discrimatory and evil.

Nice straw man.

 

[JJM 777]

if Israel is a modern western-style democracy, why are they still building housing settlements in Israel proper for specific ethnic and/or religious groups?

- Israel is a modern western-style democracy
- Israel proper includes East Jerusalem

Yep this is what the Israeli government would tell you.

Israel is defined as the homeland of a specific ethnic group. That definition is not going anywhere, and these small details are just a consequence of the big picture.

 

[The Fool]

That's apartheid too. See when it's Jews living apart it's because they are being discrimatory and evil, but when it is the arabs living apart it's becauce the Jews make them because the Jews are being discrimatory and evil.

Nope....its the same.

 

[Thunder]

So now you're claiming the United States is apartheid?

that word has been tossed around a lot lately, by right-wingers.

 

[mortimer]

that word has been tossed around a lot lately, by right-wingers.

You and The Fool are right-wingers?

 

[Thunder]

You and The Fool are right-wingers?

these folks used the term "Apartheid" quite casually.

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth
Maybe you want to bend over and lick the feet of your master, Parky. But few of us are interested in being treated like pet dogs in a fascist apartheid state.

Originally Posted by Virus
Your argument is that, for realpolitik reasons, this totalitarian apartheid system should be left in place,

 

[WildCat]

Nope....its the same.

Australia builds homes for which only Aborigines need apply.

Australia is practicing "Apartheid in new shoes", correct?

 

[Thunder]

and folks, the real issue isn't just that these homes will just be for Jews, its that they are building them in traditionally Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem.

the goal? to make the area more Jewish....so that it will be harder to remove Israeli control.

 

[WildCat]

and folks, the real issue isn't just that these homes will just be for Jews, its that they are building them in traditionally Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem.

the goal? to make the area more Jewish....so that it will be harder to remove Israeli control.

So we must keep neighborhoods segregated to avoid apartheid?