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Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Draca said:
The same for Steve Moore, John Douglas, Elizabeth A. Johnson, Ph.D. and Greg Hampikian, Ph.D., Mark Waturbury.

To say how inept the investigators were has been well documented by now. Not just inept but utterly inept. Although it might be over worked, under staffed and under paid as a reason. Perhaps lazy in a government job sort of way also. No fear of reprecussions. I don't understand the complete lack of standards. Who is charge of training and compliance? Who watches the watchers in Perugia?
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The U.S. embassy??
 
dtugg said:
Why the hell do you people care so much about this girl?
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If we don't react to this injustice, we might as well say that police can bring whoever they like in front of the judge for sentencing and do away with trials altogether. This case is representative of all the dodgy judicial processes that lead to so many miscarriages of justice all over the world. If we were to keep silent about such an obvious travesty, then how can anyone hope for justice in the so many less obvious ones that occur on a regular basis?

To be kind to them, the guilt-regardless-of-evidence faction presumably have a misguided concern that we need to be kept "safe" from murderers. Those speaking for justice can claim the same concern with the more considered grounds that when innocent people are wrongly convicted, the guilty generally go free (although in this case, ironically, the real killer is also convicted).

Not only that, but if Amanda and Raffaele's injustice is allowed to stand, then none of us anywhere is safe from wrongful accusation and imprisonment by rogue or incompetent police and courts. That includes dtugg and everyone posting in this debate, including the most gung-ho members of PMF.
 
christianahannah said:
I had thought Massei made no judgment of the attribution of the shoeprint on the pillow. He appeared to be non-committal on this item of evidence, instead recounting arguments from both sides without giving weight to either.
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You are correct. From page 368 of the report (344 of the PMF translation):

Massei said:
The Court, on this point, takes notice of the opposing conclusions without expressing a specific opinion. It cannot in fact be excluded that Guede alone tread on the cushion lying on the floor, to the exclusion of Knox (the smaller dimensions of the right foot can be explained by the characteristics of the underlying surface, the pillow, having a non-rigid structure and where the material of the pillow-slip may have been not perfectly straightened out, but, on the contrary, soft and as such determining the curvature), to whom [=Knox], actually, one [must] attribute moving herself about the murder scene essentially in bare feet, as shown in the part of the report that examines the genetic investigations that were done on certain biological traces and the positive Luminol prints.
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So there you go.

Again the idea that the footprint was evidence Amanda was in the room seems to have been guilter fanfic rather than a canonical prosecution claim. Then again I haven't seen that meme in a while so maybe that mole's been flattened properly.
 
Alt+F4 said:
I don't care about this woman at all. I've never met her, I have no "dog in this fight". I'm more about the the legal and logical aspects to the case.

As for your question dtugg, what I find intresting (translate: creepy) is how many middle-aged men are soooooo concerned that this woman is set free.
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What a disgusting thing to say. You've just lost all remaining respect I had for you. You should be ashamed of yourself: there's no evidence whatsoever that anyone arguing on JREF for Knox's and Sollecito's acquittal is doing so because of any overt - or covert - lust towards Knox. Incidentally, speaking for myself, the only other time I've become involved in any way in a miscarriage of justice case was that of Barry George, who is about as far removed from a nubile young female as it's possible to be.

Now go away please. Your comment was a disgrace, and has no place on this forum. Good bye.
 
Mrs.Columbo said:
The U.S. embassy??
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No they don't. While State can provide some levels of service, there really aren't many mechanisms for foreign governments to get involved. Unless the charge is espionage State doesn't tend to get involved in criminal matters at more than just a making sure some sort of process is followed. As long as everything is done in a reasonable way, the Italians, or any other government can pretty much do what they want. For State to get meaningfully involved the US would have to declare that we had some legitimate interest in the murder in Perugia which in all fairness we don't. I personally wish international law and process were better and a foreign convict had rights to have have his own government involved but they don't.

This is why the claims that "Hillary Clinton hasn't gotten involved" are so misleading. The last time someone of Hillary Clinton's level got involved in a case it was Donald Rumsfeld about a case in Belgium and they changed the law the person was indicted over so nothing like that would happen again. Amanda's family has nowhere near the kind of pull to get Hillary Clinton involved regardless of what the Italians do or did to her.
 
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Well, interesting appeal hearing yesterday (was away for a few days). To me, the differing reactions of the defence and the prosecution (and, VERY interestingly, the Kerchers' own counsel) to the request to open the knife handle speaks absolute volumes about what's going on here.

I also had no knowledge that the knife was so visibly dirty at around the point near where the blade meets the handle - how the heck did the court come to the conclusion that it was scrubbed to within an inch of its life, when there is such obvious long-term grime at that point on the blade? It's out of the question that anyone who was trying to destroy evidence on the knife would neglect to clean that portion of the blade.

In the mean time, we look forward to Curatolo getting utterly discredited on the stand. It's truly pathetic how some of the guilters are still suggesting that Curatolo actually meant city buses (or even tourist buses) rather than disco buses. They ought to read Toto's own testimony: he's utterly unequivocal about the fact that they were disco buses, and that crowds of young people in costumes and party clothing were waiting for these buses. And he's been living his whole life in that square for over a decade; whatever his mental dificiencies, I think it's safe to assume that he knew the difference between the various buses. It all stinks.
 
I see that Nick Pisa has now become Persona Non Grata amongst the guilt community..... they used to find him SO credible and balanced :D
 
LondonJohn said:
In the mean time, we look forward to Curatolo getting utterly discredited on the stand. It's truly pathetic how some of the guilters are still suggesting that Curatolo actually meant city buses (or even tourist buses) rather than disco buses. They ought to read Toto's own testimony: he's utterly unequivocal about the fact that they were disco buses, and that crowds of young people in costumes and party clothing were waiting for these buses. And he's been living his whole life in that square for over a decade; whatever his mental dificiencies, I think it's safe to assume that he knew the difference between the various buses. It all stinks.
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The city buses stopped at 22:00 on 1st of November 2007 so we can count them out. I don't know what is meant by 'tourist buses', why 'tourist buses' would be picking up 'tourists' at 23:00 on a bank holiday in November outside the Universita per Stranieri, and why nobody has hitherto mentioned that 'tourist buses' exactly resembling 'disco buses' are a common sight in the area at that time of night.
 
CDHost said:
No they don't. While State can provide some levels of service, there really aren't many mechanisms for foreign governments to get involved. Unless the charge is espionage State doesn't tend to get involved in criminal matters at more than just a making sure some sort of process is followed. As long as everything is done in a reasonable way, the Italians, or any other government can pretty much do what they want. For State to get meaningfully involved the US would have to declare that we had some legitimate interest in the murder in Perugia which in all fairness we don't. I personally wish international law and process were better and a foreign convict had rights to have have his own government involved but they don't.

This is why the claims that "Hillary Clinton hasn't gotten involved" are so misleading. The last time someone of Hillary Clinton's level got involved in a case it was Donald Rumsfeld about a case in Belgium and they changed the law the person was indicted over so nothing like that would happen again. Amanda's family has nowhere near the kind of pull to get Hillary Clinton involved regardless of what the Italians do or did to her.
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Exactly. This whole issue of US State Dept intervention is a massive red herring. The US will not dare to inject itself into another ally country's judicial process, in the same was as it could never dare to inject itself into another ally country's executive or legislature processes. It has a duty to one of its citizens (Knox) to ensure that she is getting treated well and has proper legal representation, but that is absolutely as far as it goes.

Even if Knox fails in all her appeals (which isn't going to happen, but let's hypothesise :) ), the US authorities will absolutely make no public complaints. There may well have been private conversations between (e.g.) the US Ambassador to Rome and a senior judicial figure in Italy, but no coercion or even suggestion - that would be entirely improper, and way outside the US's remit. The conversation (if there even was one) would have gone no further than a reminder that the outcome of the appeal process is being closely followed in the US and UK. There will have been no threat of trade restrictions or reduced military cooperation (or anything else) - that just doesn't happen in the case of the prosecution of a private citizen for a crime which is not state-related. And it won't happen here, no matter what happens in the appeals.
 
christianahannah said:
I had thought Massei made no judgment of the attribution of the shoeprint on the pillow. He appeared to be non-committal on this item of evidence, instead recounting arguments from both sides without giving weight to either.
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Literally, you are correct. I am reading between the lines a bit. The fact that he believes she was barefoot makes it pretty obvious that he also believes a shoeprint is not hers, in my opinion.
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
I beg to differ. For me it has become a fascinating pursuit. I'm a crime buff, with boxes full of true-crime paperbacks. This is a chance to get involved in a major case. I have gotten to know Amanda's family, I have met Amanda herself, and I have gotten access to the evidence. And I have a goal in life, which is to get Amanda and Raffaele out of prison. Because of my interest in crime, I know that when someone is wrongfully convicted, the system won't fix the mistake on its own. Instead it will seek to bury the mistake. If it gets fixed, it will be the result of pressure from the media and the public. That is what us FOAKERS are doing. It's a channel for our energy and passion. It affords us a chance to do something that will make the world a better place.
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Teary eyed here! Thanks Charlie!
How I wish it could be all over, how I wish to see them both out of prison, how I wish for them to get their lives back. It's sad, it really is.
 
snook1 said:
Teary eyed here! Thanks Charlie!
How I wish it could be all over, how I wish to see them both out of prison, how I wish for them to get their lives back. It's sad, it really is.
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Yeah? It's the Kershers I feel sorry for. "Teary eyes"? How I wish AK and RS rot in jail.
 
lionking said:
Yeah? It's the Kershers I feel sorry for. "Teary eyes"? How I wish AK and RS rot in jail.
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Did you mean the Kerchers? Ignorant, much?
I really should not get involved in any discussion with you, but I feel like I owe it to the KERCHERS - I feel sorry for them too, they've lost a child. They're suffering. May the peace be with them. But all of this does not change the fact that these two kids are in prison for something they didn't do. Get over it, get over yourself, stop being so full of hate and look at the case logically. When you do, then we can talk.
 
snook1 said:
Did you mean the Kerchers? Ignorant, much?
I really should not get involved in any discussion with you, but I feel like I owe it to the KERCHERS - I feel sorry for them too, they've lost a child. They're suffering. May the peace be with them. But all of this does not change the fact that these two kids are in prison for something they didn't do. Get over it, get over yourself, stop being so full of hate and look at the case logically. When you do, then we can talk.
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"Kids"?

They were and are adults. This sort of emotive rubbish is sickening. Get over yourself.
 
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