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Merged Discussion of the moon landing "hoax"

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Interesting.
So if we took a picture of a parking lot at 12 noon and the same parking lot at night lit with fluorescent lighting. And then colored the sky black of both images with photoshop.

Do you think you would be able to spot a difference between the two photos?

Only if we used the same lenses, same filmstock, same exposure settings, same development time and chemistry, same duplication techniques, and both of them shot calibrated reflectors, like whitecards or greycards. Then you could analyze the light reflected from the card.

Anything you change is going to change the final results.
 
IIRC the original design called for three legs on the LM. When they realized that if one failed it would cause dagerous instability they added 2 more. When that would add too much weight they lowered it back to 4 and placed one of them in front of the hatch, so it could double as a ladder.

Actually the original design by Grumman had 5 legs, but they found it simply wasn't necessary. The original planned method of getting onto the lunar surface was going to be a rope, but that was unwieldy, so the ladder came into play.

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So is their any footage of any trials made on earth of this Lunar module taking off from its descent stage, leaving this flimsy contraption intact, or did they not do any testing but just go on a wing and a prayer.
 
You keep saying it's flimsy, you have provided no evidence to support your claim. ALl the designs and specs are available for you to find out how it was built and what materials were used. Grumman, the vompany that designed it for NASA thought it would work. WHy would trhey think that if it is so obvious it wouldn't work?

You are making the claim it wouldn't work it's up to you to tell us why.

It was never tested on Earth as it was designed to work in the vacuum and micro gravity of space and on the Moon.
 
You've posted the modified version of this picture. Here's the original.
[qimg]http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj//a11/AS11-40-5903.jpg[/qimg]
110:42:14 Neil has moved to the MESA. No other Apollo photograph has been reproduced as often as this portrait of Buzz. Neil is, of course, visible in reflection on Buzz's visor. Buzz has his left arm raised and is probably reading the checklist sewn on the wrist cover of his glove, which is shown in a detail. He is moving his right foot forward, as can be seen by the mound of dirt building up in front of the toe of that boot. Note the dirt adhering to Buzz's boots and knees. Otherwise, he is remarkably clean. The "Red Apple", which he would grab and pull to open his purge valve in the event of a suit leak or a PLSS failure, is located roughly over his navel. From our perspective, the purge valve is installed in the connector to the left of the "Red Apple". Many readers will note that the scan from original film looks different from the presentation of 5903 that the world has been seeing since the image was released soon after Neil, Mike, and Buzz returned from the Moon. See a history of the image linked here.

Journal Contributor Markus Mehring has produced a rectified close-up of Neil's reflection in Buzz's visor. "I scanned the best and largest print I had available, removed the roughly 5 degree tilt that the original has in relation to the horizon, mirrored it, adjusted color in order to somewhat get rid of the golden tint of the visor, and re-projected it flat in order to kill as much spherical appearance as tolerable - hence the smear on the edges, which is impossible to avoid."

In March 2005, Journal Contributor Eric Nelson digitally removed the gold color of Buzz's visor ( 321k ) and revealed an unmistakably blue reflection of Earth. Nelson writes, " I eliminated most all of the gold visor tint, leaving a spot that wasn't white and so suggested itself as a film artifact rather than a piece of dust. On scanned slide film, dust would be black anyway, unless it might be some small translucent particle. I get the feeling the AS-11 master film scanning was done with some attention to cleanliness though, which should exclude any foreign objects of that size on the image. It is possible to verify whether any wanted or unwanted tint remains in neutrals in an image by temporarily saturating them heavily; I did that to the Spot toward 100% increase, and it turned Earth-Blue. I similarly saturated the gold-subtracted lunar surface reflections, and the open sunlit surface remained neutral while the surface in the influence of reflection from the LM turned gold: this suggests the gold subtraction was accurate and revealed a valid neutral image. This suggests the gold-subtracted spot did have a blue component...and I hope I don't take too much artistic license in exaggerating it to produce a psycho-visual link!"

Kipp Teague writes "I returned to the original June 2004 JSC scan of AS11-40-5903, cropped to Aldrin's visor, flipped and slightly rotated the image and took a stab at adjusting color to offset the gold in the visor. The linked image ( 109k ) represents the original scanning resolution. I don't see a BRIGHT blue object in the sky, but indeed, whatever is there is bluish in color, and more importantly, it is NOT single-pixel scanner noise as I can see elsewhere in the scan. Even better, when you enlarge this, you can see that the object generally matches in shape the Earth as viewed over the LM in AS11-40-5924."

In addition to investigations of the intrinsic characteristics of the Spot, it is necessary to verify that geometric factors are all correct. A check of Starry Night shows that, at 0414 UT on 21 July 1969, Earth was 59.5 degrees above the western Tranquility horizon at an azimuth of 270.6. The sun was 14.3 degrees above eastern horizon at an azimuth of about 88.1 degrees. The fact that the azimuth difference between the Earth and the Sun was close to 180 degrees, an image of Earth, if any, would be near the line of Buzz's shadow. Further, because the Earth was about 60 degrees above the western horizon, it's reflection would appear at a place on the visor where a line perpendicular to the visor surface is 30 degrees (half the Earth's elevation) above horizontal. A labeled detail from AS11-40-5875 ( 74k ) shows that this condition is met near the top of the visor.

Sharp-eyed readers will have noticed that the analysis is not yet complete. With Earth slightly north of west and the Sun lightly north of east, the reflected image of Earth should be on the opposite side of the reflected image of Buzz's shadow from the reflected LM. Nelson has produced a rectified detail ( 192k ) in which "I re-projected the visor image to flatten the horizon (effectively killing barrel distortion), rotated the horizon to level, and then horizontally skewed the image to parallel and square-to-vertical the LM descent stage sides. Finally I mirrored it to produce a normal view to the west. Some distortions remain, which suggests the visor isn't spherical, so that could explain sundry slight geometric inconsistencies in the rough analysis.". The rectified image shows the tentative Earth 'image' tantalizingly close to the line of Buzz's shadow, but on the wrong side. It is tempting to think that consideration of the actual figure of the gold visor will move the 'image' to the other side of the line of Buzz's shadow, but the necessary analysis is yet to be done.
​
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj//a11/images11.html#Mag40


What the above tells you, if you bother to read it, is that this photo is both internally and externally consistent with being taken on the moon.

Well thanks for that, it is interesting in an etymology of Klingon sort of way.

You have missed the point I was making, but see you have got it down the page - so I won't retraverse the material.

But you allude to something that I have wondered about, are there any photos of earth actually from the moon's surface? I know about the earthrise pictures but I think are from lunar orbit, no? Is there an image of earth from on the moon?

Its interesting to look at the progression of earthrise pictures. It was only by Apollo 17 did they become a distinctive blue image, in the early Apollo missions they just were a silver moon like image.

I am guessing there must have been a war on during this period because all the cities seemed to have gone into black out.
 
Well the fact remains,
a. the propulsion system of a harrier jet could not lift it off the ground in no atmosphere Utterly irrelevant.
b. if anyone can show me a picture of a harrier jet taking off from a contraption of aluminium poles and tin foil - that I would like to see. Utterly irrelevant.

If the system is so easy why not use it for reentry

Because that's a significantly different task, which it wasn't designed to do. It couldn't provide enough thrust or burn for long enough to make a slow descent and soft landing in Earth gravity.
 
You keep saying it's flimsy, you have provided no evidence to support your claim. ALl the designs and specs are available for you to find out how it was built and what materials were used. Grumman, the vompany that designed it for NASA thought it would work. WHy would trhey think that if it is so obvious it wouldn't work?

All aluminum is the same, right? It's like they built the lander out of soda cans!

/sarcasm
 
Interesting.
So if we took a picture of a parking lot at 12 noon and the same parking lot at night lit with fluorescent lighting. And then colored the sky black of both images with photoshop.

Do you think you would be able to spot a difference between the two photos?

Very likely, but the goalposts used to be waaaay over there → Your spectroscopic analysis would be useless, as it would only show you the spectra of whatever paper and inks you printed the pictures with (or monitor you displayed it on).
 
...are there any photos of earth actually from the moon's surface? I know about the earthrise pictures but I think are from lunar orbit, no? Is there an image of earth from on the moon?
Certainly. Ironically, you seem not to have noticed there is a link to a rather nice one within the very post you just quoted: AS11-40-5924
I am guessing there must have been a war on during this period because all the cities seemed to have gone into black out.

Well, you got that bit right.
 
The atmosphere was used for braking. Taking along fuel to decelerate the capsule would have increased the size of the Saturn V by an unbelievable amount.


Indeed. There's a reason why the direct ascent mode of getting to the Moon was abandoned...
 
In the end, I don't think you can get past Newton's 3rd law and you to sending an equal and opposite force down on whatever you lift off from and frankly I don't think something with this structure has the capacity not to collapse in the middle

I've bolded the part where this fails. A rocket engine develops thrust by pushing against the inside of the nozzle causing the equal and opposite motion of the craft, not by pushing against the ground -- tell us how that would work miles from the nearest large mass in a near vacuum?
 
All aluminum is the same, right? It's like they built the lander out of soda cans!

/sarcasm

Seriously, lgr, the LEM was built by Grumman, AKA 'The Ironworks'. One thing Grumman didn't do was flimsy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman

Grumman's products were considered so reliable and ruggedly built that the company was often referred to as the "Grumman Iron Works".
 
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So is their any footage of any trials made on earth of this Lunar module taking off from its descent stage, leaving this flimsy contraption intact, or did they not do any testing but just go on a wing and a prayer.

If you did some research, you'd have found out that there was design calculations, structural (rather than flight) testing here on Earth, during an unmanned test flight during Apollo 5 and that little mission called Apollo 9 where they did a manned test.
 
Here is footage of an actual take-off from the Moon, by the ascent stage. From Apollo 17.



IT'S ON YOUTUBE! HOW CAN YOU DENY IT'S REAL?
 
If you did some research, you'd have found out that there was design calculations, structural (rather than flight) testing here on Earth, during an unmanned test flight during Apollo 5 and that little mission called Apollo 9 where they did a manned test.

lgr is self-admittedly too lazy to do any research. He'd rather just make bad guesses based on flawed understanding, limited knowledge and a pre-determined desire to want the moon landing to be a hoax. I suppose in his twisted logic that if the moon landing is a hoax it would lend some credence to his laughable holocaust hoax delusions.
 
Of all the Apollo hoax threads ever this has to be the leastest.
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But the mostest realistice.

< covers, ducks , runs >

LOL, first had a typo and put in "rums," which might make the thread more entertaining.
.
 
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