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Merged Electric Sun Theory (Split from: CME's, active regions and high energy flares)

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Naturally, I have the book that Zeuzzz refers to, in which Tony Lui writes about Section 5: Distinction between current disruption and magnetic reconnection.

I have not time at the moment to discuss this section by Tony, but the main point to understand is that these are two completely different processes.

I'm still waiting for a physical description that explains how "magnetic reconnection" is fundamentally unique and different from induction. As best as I can tell the whole process takes place inside a double layer, it involves particle kinetic energy, and the transfer of magnetic field energy into particle kinetic energy. The transfer of magnetic field energy into particle kinetic energy already *HAS* a proper scientific name, it's called 'induction'. How exactly is "magnetic reconnection" not actually "induction" with a stupid title?
 
I disagree. No such agreement is necessary. The only thing that is necessary is that you clearly state your definition of whatever the phrase du jour is (in this case "discharge" or perhaps "electrical discharge") and then present a hypothesis that is consistent with your definition. If agreement is lacking, the proper scientific response is to tell the opposition to take a long walk off a short plank, unless of course they can present a valid criticism of the physics that underlies the words. So stop fiddling around with nonsensical distractions and get to the point: What is the physics and how does it involve your definition?

Fair enough.

Peratt's definition makes it quite clear that there is a transfer of stored EM energy that is quickly dissipated into a localized event. That discharge event has a specific effect on the plasma in that vicinity, specifically the items listed in the definition.

One very *simple* set of data that requires us to distinguish between stable current and electrical discharges is that GOES data. During flare events, the x-ray output of the sun spikes significatly and does so in very specific locations in the solar atmosphere. The "current" inside the coronal loop sustains the temperatures of the million degree loops/circuits for days on end. If however two circuits "reconnect", we will end up with a particle collision inside that double layer. The "currents" are already fast and furious inside the "loop" and already producing million degree plasma all along the loop. The point of "reconnection" is like two freeways running directly into one another with all the cars doing 100 miles an hour on both freeways. Any "fast" transfer of magnetic field energy into particle kinetic energy (I'll call it induction and you can all it whatever you want) is also occurring at that point of 'reconnection".

The "fast release" of particle kinetic energy that ensues is an "electrical discharge" in the plasma. It results in a "spike" in that x-ray GOES data.

Are we at least communicating clearly, or is there something specific I need to address at the particle physics level that I'm missing somehow? I agree that both Alfven's "circuit" orientation and "reconnection" maths work on paper, but at the level of physics, IMO it's "induction" doing the work.
 
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I'm still waiting for a physical description that explains how "magnetic reconnection" is fundamentally unique and different from induction. As best as I can tell the whole process takes place inside a double layer, it involves particle kinetic energy, and the transfer of magnetic field energy into particle kinetic energy. The transfer of magnetic field energy into particle kinetic energy already *HAS* a proper scientific name, it's called 'induction'. How exactly is "magnetic reconnection" not actually "induction" with a stupid title?

And I am still waiting for you to actually address the development of "circuit reconnection."

As I have no idea how you want to describe reconnnection by induction and a double layer, I would advise you to make this model clear, in detail and present it here.

Induction is the creation of an electric field through the time change of a magnetic field, curl(E) ~ dB/dt. The release of magnetic tension of the field, that leads to acceleration of the plasma connected to the field can be described with a jxB force, like in the mass loaded flux tubes around Europa.

So part of what is happening around the Xline could possibly be described by induction (but that is for MM to describe fully), however, equating reconnection with induction does not make sense as induction cannot change the magnetic topology through an Xpoint configuration.
 
I read that paper too. The differences are minuscule and hard to test. (thats a very basic quick overview before I try to elaborate and fail miserably from lack of sleep)

"completely different processes" is a gross exaggeration. And you know it.

Both arise from practically identical x points topologies where the lines/currents short circuit at the central point.

Not at all, these are two completely different processes, and MR happens further down the tail, whereas CD usually happens closer to the Earth.

CD is dependent on various instabilities, like the ballooning instability, and manifests itself through large oscillations of the magnetic field.

MR is dependent on oppositely directed magnetic field being pushed together, is in observations less oscillatory and shows evidence of the expected Hall magnetic field.

And then there can be a mix of the two models in one event, where part of the event agrees with the Xline of reconnection and other time intervals can be explained by CD, and that is only possible if both mechanisms are different and thus have different signatures. A very good study of two events measured by Cluster can be found in this paper by my boss, where experts on both mechanisms are included in the work group.
 
I thought that would have been obvious. The effect of gravity is insignificant compared to the electromagnetic forces some x39 powers of magnitude stronger.

Where did this number come from?
 
The effect of gravity is insignificant compared to the electromagnetic forces some x39 powers of magnitude stronger.

Where did this number come from?

If one compares the electrostatic attraction to the gravitational attraction between an electron and a proton, I get a ratio of ~2.26E39. So for testing a system of 2 charged particles (and nothing else), I'd have to concur with Haig that gravity can usually be ignored.

Of course, when working on larger scales, things look a bit different. The sun, for example, has the mass of ~1E57 protons, so unless it has a net charge of 1E38 Coloumbs, the gravitational effect on an electron won't be quite as negligible.
 
The EU/PC sites quote this number but I don't think it's controversial, mainstream sites quote it too, see here:

University of California, San Diego Center for Astrophysics & Space Sciences
http://casswww.ucsd.edu/public/tutorial/Forces.html

I'm not suggesting it's controversial. I'm suggesting you don't know what it means. That quote doesn't indicate that you do know what it means.
 
The EU/PC sites quote this number but I don't think it's controversial, mainstream sites quote it too, see here:

University of California, San Diego Center for Astrophysics & Space Sciences
http://casswww.ucsd.edu/public/tutorial/Forces.html

It's not controversial its just not relevant. The 1039 is the approximate ratio for the proton and the electron. We're not talking about individual protons and electrons though. We're talking about entities that are 10s of orders of magnitude more massive.

ETA: it also comes from electrostatics... something you moaned vehemently about Ziggurat's use of, telling us all it was the wrong model.
 
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I'm not suggesting it's controversial. I'm suggesting you don't know what it means. That quote doesn't indicate that you do know what it means.
Ah! an ad hom;)

Well, what I understand by it is that there is NO need to invent concepts like dark matter and dark energy to explain how the galaxies hold together when the gravity math says they shouldn't.

The EU/PC theory can explain that just fine also why the galaxies form and move the way they do and the much larger structures in the universe too. It's ALL 99.9% plasma.

How Are Stars Born?
An electric field, no matter how weak, will initiate an electric current that generates a magnetic field. Those fields interact with the magnetic fields generated by other currents. In images from space, as well as in high-speed photographs of plasma activity in the laboratory, those currents are seen to form twisted pairs of filaments, called Birkeland currents. Birkeland currents follow magnetic field lines and draw charged material from their surroundings with a force 39 orders of magnitude greater than gravity. Magnetic fields pinch the ultra-fine dust and plasma into heated blobs of matter called plasmoids.

As the effect, called a "z-pinch," increases, the electric field intensifies, further increasing the z-pinch. The compressed blobs form spinning electrical discharges. At first they glow as dim red dwarfs, then blazing yellow stars, and finally they might become brilliant ultraviolet arcs, driven by the electric currents that generated them.
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2009/arch09/091106born.htm

BIRKELAND CURRENTS IN DEEP SPACE? Some possibilities IMO:-

That such filaments actually exist is suggested by this HST view of a very old network of filamentous galaxies and stars in deep space.

Thus, star formation that goes hand-in-hand with galaxy evolution is a general process that can take place wherever widespread-to-local concentrations of dominantly Hydrogen gas produce clouds of matter of sufficient density to initiate gravitational contractions. Typically, only a few percent of a cloud's mass will be organized into stars.
http://rst.gsfc.nasa.gov/Sect20/A2.html

Elongated clusters of thousands of galaxies have been termed "Great Walls" and can extend up to a billion light years in length. The Great Walls are in fact representatives of the filaments described earlier in discussing the gross structure of the Universe. One of the Great Walls is shown in this plot:
http://rst.gsfc.nasa.gov/Sect20/A2a.html

GIANT GAS CLOUDS ILLUMINATE UNIVERSE’S LARGEST STRUCTURE
A team of astronomers using the Subaru and Keck telescopes on Mauna Kea has discovered giant, three-dimensional filaments of galaxies extending across 200 million light-years of space
http://subarutelescope.org/Pressrelease/2006/07/26/index.html

Of course mainstream favour gravity (with the help of the dark stuff) as the cause of the above.
 
Ah! an ad hom;)

No, Haig. Your understanding (or more correctly, lack of understanding) of that number is relevant, because it doesn't mean what you think it means. But you won't ever realize that if you don't know where it comes from in the first place.

Well, what I understand by it is that there is NO need to invent concepts like dark matter and dark energy to explain how the galaxies hold together when the gravity math says they shouldn't.

In other words, you don't understand where that number came from. Would you care to learn?
 
It's not controversial its just not relevant. The 1039 is the approximate ratio for the proton and the electron. We're not talking about individual protons and electrons though. We're talking about entities that are 10s of orders of magnitude more massive.

ETA: it also comes from electrostatics... something you moaned vehemently about Ziggurat's use of, telling us all it was the wrong model.
That's right you are using the wrong model.

Here's Don Scott's latest paper on the Sun's electric field:

Introduction
Most investigators who are receptive to the Electric Sun Model agree that the Sun is electrically charged to a high voltage and acts as the anode in a plasma discharge. The Sun’s corona is the most visible part of that plasma. The cathode in this discharge is a virtual cathode – a surface located at a large distance from the Sun, several times the distance of the outermost planets. The entire volume from the Sun out to the cathode contains plasma. Thus the name solar plasmasphere is (ought to be) used to describe it.
The outer surface of the plasmasphere is called the heliopause and is probably a plasma sheath (possibly a single or double layer (DL) of electrical charge). This layer is the virtual cathode
http://www.electric-cosmos.org/SunsEfield92210.pdf
 
And I am still waiting for you to actually address the development of "circuit reconnection."

I started that earlier with Tim (I even skipped a step with Tim). Unfortunately it's been a zoo at work today (all week in fact). FYI next week is likely to be completely off scale since folks will be doing w-2's, year end tax statements for parents and it's just a million question month. :) Hang in there. Things will slow down soon.

As I have no idea how you want to describe reconnnection by induction and a double layer, I would advise you to make this model clear, in detail and present it here.

Induction is the creation of an electric field through the time change of a magnetic field, curl(E) ~ dB/dt. The release of magnetic tension of the field, that leads to acceleration of the plasma connected to the field can be described with a jxB force, like in the mass loaded flux tubes around Europa.

So part of what is happening around the Xline could possibly be described by induction (but that is for MM to describe fully), however, equating reconnection with induction does not make sense as induction cannot change the magnetic topology through an Xpoint configuration.

The "magnetic topology" as you call it is going to be addressed by the flow of current, and specifically the least resistant path of those charged particles. The CURRENT FLOW TOPOLOGY changes over time, and with it the magnetic field topology changes as well.

I can't believe this day isn't over yet at work. I think I've answered a thousand questions today. :)
 
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Something I missed from a few pages back HERE
That has already been done, search for my name and juergens.
But to help you, so you cannot claim you cannot find it, read this post #976

I would like a good, scientific debunking of my calculation by you.
Your right tusenfem I'm no mathematician (my bold) but I'd like to present Scott's rebuttal of your calculation.

I haven't the time to brush up on my math so I posted on the Thunderbolts forum your calculation and asked for the flaws to be pointed out. It turns out it had been discussed on there years ago, link HERE

Don Scott
A casual reading of this mathematical attempt to falsify the Electric Sun hypothesis reveals several misstatements, and unsupported assumptions.

1. Juergens hypothesized a solar voltage = 1010 V, not 109. The exact value is of course conjectural. But if you are going to claim you are refuting Juergens, you ought to at least quote him correctly.

2. Therefore, the writer’s stated required current value is wrong (too high) by a factor of ten (if he is claiming to refute Juergens). Juergens’ total current value is 4 x 1016 A. But these exponential magnitudes are just guesses at present.

3. His (the writer’s) assumption that the required current has to be in the form of an equatorial sheet having a thickness equal to the Sun's diameter is pure conjecture and not related to anything Juergens ever suggested. Juergens never claimed the solar electric current was confined to an equatorial sheet.

4. Imposing structural details of Alfvén’s model onto Juergen’s model is unwarranted. But even Alfvén suggested his proposed current sheet was only partially equatorial. Alfvén, of course, never suggested the Sun is fully externally powered. So mixing the two models is completely inappropriate.

Alfvén’s contention was that there is substantial electrical activity near to the Sun that explains several otherwise enigmatic (for gravity-only fusion hypotheses) observed properties. He also postulated that the equatorial current sheet balloons out as it approaches the Sun – becoming unlike a sheet formation and becoming field-aligned:

It seems to be a general rule of cosmic physics that field-aligned currents frequently manifest themselves as luminous filaments. If the current in [the ballooned out flow] is spread over an extended region, we should expect filaments. Equatorial streamers in the solar corona may be explained in this way.1

As a starting point we all agree that the Sun does in fact have a magnetic field. The writer of the (mathematical) proof correctly points out that Maxwell’s equations are dominant in such situations. He cites:

∇ x H = j + ∂D/∂t

where B = µH, j = current density, and D = ε E which demonstrates the requirement of considering electric currents whenever we have magnetic fields. In his book Cosmic Plasma2 Alfvén points out that in order to produce the well-known spiral shaped solar magnetic field, a spiral current is required. Given the value of the observed field strength (~ 2 x 10 -9 T) at a radial distance from the Sun of one astronomical unit (Earth’s orbital radius), he calculates the magnitude of the causative total current as being I0 = 3 x 109 Amp.

The writer of the "proof" states that:

The Ulysses spacecraft over the poles of the sun have not shown any signature AFAIK of strong toroidal magnetic fields associated with the out flowing currents.

He should be aware that the maximum solar latitude attained by the Ulysses probe was 80.2 degrees. So to imply Ulysses sought out the electric current (or magnetic field strength) directly over the Sun’s poles is inaccurate. Also such currents may be field-aligned and not produce toroidal magnetic structures. Alfvén stated that the exact location of current paths and structure was yet to be determined.

The model predicts that there should be currents near the [Sun’s] axis strong enough to match the current in the equatorial plane. … They may be distributed over a large region and may in part flow at medium altitudes.3

He (Alfvén) goes on to state that the presence of the electric current (in the polar regions) would produce a force on the solar atmosphere via the Lorentz relation:

Df = I ds x B

that would tend to decelerate the rotation of the Sun in those high latitudes and thus be an explanation of the observed fact that this is indeed the case.

Conclusions:

1. Observed magnetic fields around (and due to) the Sun require the presence of electric currents.

2. The exact locations and paths taken by those currents are not yet clear – but they must exist if the magnetic fields exist (unless we want to deny the validity of Maxwell’s equations).

3. We know now that the aurora displays (plasma glow discharges) that we see both here on Earth and on various other planets are due to electric currents coming from the Sun moving down into the "cusps" (indentations) of the magnetospheres (plasmaspheres) of those bodies. It would not be surprising if the Sun also received electric current from the galaxy via a similar morphology to produce its plasma arc discharges.

4. It has taken establishment astrophysics over a century (after Birkeland first described this mechanism) to recognize its existence. It is premature to deny the possibility of a similar mechanism on the Sun.

5. Juergens’ model implies that the outer surface of the heliosphere is the collector of the necessary current stream from the nearby region of our galaxy. Inside the heliopause (within the "solar wind" plasma) the movement of electrons would consist of a "drift current" moving inward toward the Sun superimposed on a vastly stronger "Brownian (random) motion" and therefore be difficult to measure. For a summary of Juergens’ computation see Appendix C of The Electric Sky.

6. The Electric Sun model is still in its infancy. Whether or not it is correct in each one of its details is not as important as realizing that the phenomena observable at and above the photosphere are indeed highly electrical in nature.

7. Those who demand that ES proponents state exactly how, where, and by what paths electrons get to the Sun seem not to be even more outraged by the claim that invisible "missing matter" exists and is responsible for dozens of otherwise inexplicable observations. Am I the only one to see the irony in that?

1 Alfvén, H. Cosmic Plasma, D. Reidel, 1981, p. 56.

2 Op cit.pp. 53-55.

3 Op cit. p. 56.
 
That paper contained not a single value, nor even a reference to an observation of the sun that might provide any support for . . . well, any theory.
How does it demonstrate that Zig is using the wrong model?
It wasn't meant too. This thread is about about Electric Sun theory and Scott's latest paper is relevant to that.
You seem to have missed my point entirely.
Don't think so.

Ziggurat and tusenfem are using the electrostatic model, when in fact it's electrodynamic. Don't you think electromagnetic forces some x39 powers of magnitude stronger applies here?
 
FYI TIm,

I forgot to mention that I skipped ahead with you a bit with you in terms of the release of circuit energy from ONE circuit. One of the advantages of the circuit orientation is that it can explain the release of energy from ONE loop, not just two that happen to 'reconnect'. That strong current running through the loop/circuit/pinched thread also explains why a single coronal loop reaches millions of degrees *without* any 'reconnection' to another loop/circuit.

I gave a pretty good description of the release of energy from one circuit in this post, and I provided references from Alfven a few pages back in that same conversation.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6783168&postcount=2244
 
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It wasn't meant too. This thread is about about Electric Sun theory and Scott's latest paper is relevant to that.

It's arguably relevant since it discusses the sun and electric charges, but it doesn't provide any support whatsoever.

Ziggurat and tusenfem are using the electrostatic model, when in fact it's electrodynamic. Don't you think electromagnetic forces some x39 powers of magnitude stronger applies here?

oh, dear
 
Ziggurat and tusenfem are using the electrostatic model, when in fact it's electrodynamic. Don't you think electromagnetic forces some x39 powers of magnitude stronger applies here?

You keep using that number, but 1) that number comes from electrostatics, which you're saying is wrong to use, 2) you don't understand what that number even means, and 3) if you did know, you'd realize it's simply not applicable here.
 
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