Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[RWVBWL]

Hi all,
Being a fan of Frank Sfarzo's Perugia Shock, I check in daily, if possible.
Does anyone else have an idea about the meaning of Mr. Srafzo's last post in the comments section?

Frank Sfarzo said...
"I can confirm the same treatment. Much worse actually.
And the same evidence creating"...

 

[RWVBWL]

What is unlikely about it? That Rudy stabbed her once from behind while she was standing, and that she either fell/was pushed to her knees and that he finished her while she was bent over on the floor? Which part seems strange?

Hi Malkmus,
What do you make of the apparent knife cuts on Rudy Guede's hand(s)?
How do they fit into the scenerio you describe?

 

[RWVBWL]

Has anyone ever seriously suggested that as a theory?

The theory generally settled upon here for the Lone Wolf hypothesis is that Rudy got blood on the leg of his pants and other places other than the soles of his shoes, walked to the bathroom without leaving a blood trail, removed his shoes, washed the blood off himself using the sink, bidet and shower, in the process leaving the footprint on the bathmat in a mixture of blood and water, returned to Meredith's room with towels, stole some stuff, and then got a small amount of blood on the bottom of his shoes as he left the murder room for the second time and exited via the front door.

What DNA evidence do you think exists that supports the idea that someone was holding her hands, and how does this evidence support the theory that someone was holding her hands?

Hi Kevin Lowe,
1 thing that has always bothered me about the Rudy Guede 'Lone Wolf hypothesis' is why would someone/anyone stab a person in the throat multiple times and then go and get towels from the bathroom and bring them into the murder room?

That just doesn't make sense to me, for it almost seems like the person who would have done the stabbing is remorsefull...

 

[Malkmus]

That she isn't grasping her throat with at least one hand, regardless of what position she is in, try and picture somesone stabbing you in the throat and what your reaction would be. The second or third stabs/slash should have hit her hand, its kind of almost impossible to hold both her hands away and stab her twice more, the first stab is easy, the next two are the troublesome ones.

It's not a bad point you make, but I think that especially if someone is forced to the ground one's instinct is to reach out with both hands to break the fall. If you're holding a glass of water and someone pushes you down to the ground, you're still going to drop the glass of water in order to put both hands out. I think that if Rudy shoved her down she would have let go of her throat long enough for Rudy to grab her again and stab her two more times.

 

[Malkmus]

Hi Malkmus,
What do you make of the apparent knife cuts on Rudy Guede's hand(s)?
How do they fit into the scenerio you describe?

Hey, RWVBWL!
I think that if the wounds on Rudy's hands are related to the murder that they were either caused by coming into contact with broken glass on the window sill or from his hand slipping on the knife when he stabbed Meredith.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

That she isn't grasping her throat with at least one hand, regardless of what position she is in, try and picture somesone stabbing you in the throat and what your reaction would be. The second or third stabs/slash should have hit her hand, its kind of almost impossible to hold both her hands away and stab her twice more, the first stab is easy, the next two are the troublesome ones.

You'll find that if you are on all fours with an opponent's weight on your shoulders, most people's instinct (and indeed usually the correct move) is to support themselves with their hands so that their face isn't driven into the ground. That leaves you at most one hand to defend yourself with, possibly none at all depending on the weight on you and your arm strength.

If that hasn't worked and you are prone with the opponent's weight on your back a trained grappler will have their hands up by their neck to protect it, but an untrained person is just as likely to get their arms pinned under them or by their side as they collapse.

I'd find Meredith's lack of defensive wounds odd if she was attacked from the front by a standing assailant. I don't see anything remotely odd about them if she was grappled from behind by a larger, stronger attacker and I spent years rolling around on the mat with everyone from absolute beginners to international judo competitors. (Once. He was a beast. I was so unbelievably outclassed that words fail me).

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

It's not a bad point you make, but I think that especially if someone is forced to the ground one's instinct is to reach out with both hands to break the fall. If you're holding a glass of water and someone pushes you down to the ground, you're still going to drop the glass of water in order to put both hands out. I think that if Rudy shoved her down she would have let go of her throat long enough for Rudy to grab her again and stab her two more times.

Again, I do not say it is impossible, just not as likely and one step farther, even if Amanda and RS are innocent, I'll still believe that Rudy had someone with him, whom I do not know.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Hi Kevin Lowe,
1 thing that has always bothered me about the Rudy Guede 'Lone Wolf hypothesis' is why would someone/anyone stab a person in the throat multiple times and then go and get towels from the bathroom and bring them into the murder room?

That just doesn't make sense to me, for it almost seems like the person who would have done the stabbing is remorsefull...

I don't have mind-reading powers or a time machine, so I just don't know. Maybe he was remorseful, maybe he didn't realise the extent of the wounds he'd inflicted and had the faint hope that Meredith might live so he wouldn't be facing a murder charge, maybe he had a vague idea about mopping up all the blood and hiding the body but realised when he started that it was just not going to happen.

All of the same questions arise if Meredith was murdered by three people, as I see it.

I remarked earlier on the error of cramming a fact into a narrative and counting it as evidence for the truth of that narrative. You can cram the towels in to the single-killer theory or the three-killer theory equally well, so it doesn't count as evidence for or against either.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hey, RWVBWL!
I think that if the wounds on Rudy's hands are related to the murder that they were either caused by coming into contact with broken glass on the window sill or from his hand slipping on the knife when he stabbed Meredith.

Hi Malkmus,
Have a look at this post.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6749611#post6749611
What do you think?

 

[Dan O.]

Thank you, Dan-O. This confirms something I suspected, that it was only a matter of minutes that Raffaele was with the police before the statement was official, thus Monica Napoleoni's account is found to be in error yet again.

These times aren't proven yet. Don't believe anything without a reference and question the ones that do have references.

Another nice reminder was that Raffaele and Amanda had been there earlier in the day, I'd seen something about that but had totally forgotten about it.

I don't think Amanda had been to the station earlier on the 5th. In the recorded call with Filomena while Amanda was at the station, she said she thought this would be the first day since the murder that she wasn't spending time at the station.


Anyhow, I updated this part of the timeline by scanning the three threads here and incorporating any times and references for November 5th. Now I just need to verify those references since there are several obvious errors.

== Nov 5, 2007 ==​

Amanda and Raffaele have classes today.

13:00 After class Amanda met Patrick in front of the Universita per Stranieri.

CP: Listen, in the statement of Nov 6 at 5:45, you declared to the police that you met Patrick in the morning of Nov 5, in front of the Universita per Stranieri. (Amanda Testimony)​

AK had two conversations with Lumumba prior to the interrogation, by phone he reached her at the Questura on Nov 2 at 7:30pm, and a street meeting at 1pm on Nov 5th. (Dempsey, MiI p146)​

14:00 Rosa Natalia Guman Fernendez de Calle, RS' cleaning lady, cleans RS' apartment for the last time.

Sollecito and Knox were there then. [http://www.zimbio.com/Amanda+Knox/articles/80/Report+Courtroom+How+Saturday+Went]​

??:?? AK and RS are having a pizza at a friends home

, police call and ask Raffaele to come to the station.​

15:00 Raffaele picked up (according to news)

"police picked up Rafaele Sollecito for questioning, three days after Kercher's body was discovered. Police located Sollecito at a cafe. It was three in the afternoon and Sollecito was eating a pizza. But Sollecito wasn't alone. Amanda Knox was also sharing the pizza" [http://www.wctv.tv/news/headlines/88398897.html]​

17:00 Raffaele summoned to the police station. Amanda goes with him and waits in a separate room. (PMF)
17:00 Student Memorial for Meredith [http://www.monstersandcritics.com/n...pects_over_British_students_murder__Roundup_]

"A picture taken on Monday night November, 5 2007 shows a tribute from Meredith Kercher's friends in Perugia who held held a candlelight vigil on the steps of the town's cathedral.The English girl was brutally murdered at her apartment late last week."​

17:00 Sunset in Perugia [http://www.spectralcalc.com/solar_calculator/solar_position.php]
20:00 Candlelight vigil for Meredith. (PMF)
22:00 AK and RS arrive at station. (Fiona JREF1 #440)
22:15 After having dinner, Amanda and Raffaele arrive at the police station (PMF)
22:29 Amanda makes a 3 minute phone call to Filomena

Amanda says she "Just arrived" and Raffaele is being questioned. The call ends with Amanda saying: "Now somebody wants to talk to me."​

22:30 Raffaele, being questioned at this point, breaks and begins to change his story (PMF)
22:40 (at the earliest - Amanda is talking to Filomena about where to live at 1039) Amanda is called in for formal questioning (PMF)
22:40 Raffaele signs statement

Sollecito Raffaele was interviewed again, and he changed his version of events, saying that on the evening of November 1, after Meredith left the house, he was with Knox Amanda until 1800 when they had both left the apartment to go into the centre, around 2030 to 2100. [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1568860/Meredith-Kercher-murder-Judges-report.html (Telegraph:Judges Report)]​

23:00 The infamous cartwheel.

Ms Napoleone said: 'She had complained that she was feeling tired and at that stage I told her that she could go if she wanted. 'She said she wanted to stay, Sollecito was also at the station at the time and she said she wanted to wait for him. 'A few minutes later I walked past a room at the police station where she was waiting and I saw Amanda doing the splits and a cartwheel. It was around 11am on November 5th.​

 

[RWVBWL]

Again, I do not say it is impossible, just not as likely and one step farther, even if Amanda and RS are innocent, I'll still believe that Rudy had someone with him, whom I do not know.

Hi Sherlock Holmes,
I guess that you can add me too to the very small group that believes that Rudy Guede probably had someone else with him, someone more experienced, someone he is very afraid of, someone who did stab Meredith Kercher in her throat multiple times in a most brutal, bloody way. And someone who then left fast, leaving Rudy there still.

Or to the even smaller group that believes that Rudy got there as Aviello or someone else had just stabbed Meredith Kercher in her throat and was leaving the scene...

Though it could have been Rudy Guede all by himself commiting this horrible murder, I wonder if he was really capable of shoving a knife into Meredith Kercher's throat.
Peace, RWVBWL

PS-I do reserve the right to change my opinion though!

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Hi Sherlock Holmes,
I guess that you can add me too to the very small group that believes that Rudy Guede probably had someone else with him, someone more experienced, someone he is very afraid of, someone who did stab Meredith Kercher in her throat multiple times in a most brutal, bloody way. And someone who then left fast, leaving Rudy there still.

Or to the even smaller group that believes that Rudy got there as Aviello or someone else had just stabbed Meredith Kercher in her throat and was leaving the scene...

Though it could have been Rudy Guede all by himself commiting this horrible murder, I wonder if he was really capable of shoving a knife into Meredith Kercher's throat.
Peace, RWVBWL

PS-I do reserve the right to change my opinion though!

Exactly, I often wondered why Rudy hasn't told everyone that Amanda and RS are innocent - especially now that his trial is over - there has to be a reason, one reason would be because they are not innocent, and he is not taking the rap all by himself, but another reason might be because he is protecting someone else.

 

[Poppy1016]

Hi Sherlock Holmes,
I guess that you can add me too to the very small group that believes that Rudy Guede probably had someone else with him, someone more experienced, someone he is very afraid of, someone who did stab Meredith Kercher in her throat multiple times in a most brutal, bloody way. And someone who then left fast, leaving Rudy there still.

Or to the even smaller group that believes that Rudy got there as Aviello or someone else had just stabbed Meredith Kercher in her throat and was leaving the scene...

Though it could have been Rudy Guede all by himself commiting this horrible murder, I wonder if he was really capable of shoving a knife into Meredith Kercher's throat.
Peace, RWVBWL

PS-I do reserve the right to change my opinion though!

Hi RWVBWL
I just can't bring myself to believe that anyone besides RG was in that room. Just as AK and RS, I believe that anyone besides RG would have left some trace no matter how small.

 

[Kaosium]

These times aren't proven yet. Don't believe anything without a reference and question the ones that do have references.

Indeed, that's something I figured out as well, I can't count how many times I've had to adjust my theories to eliminate something disproven or to incorporate 'new' data. It is nice to have a framework to start with though, that makes corroborating things easier in my mind.

Incidentally, re-reading Napoleoni's version of events recently caused me to wonder: has anyone actually 'solved' the cartwheel mystery which was where this discussion began? Off the top of my head I recall that some sources indicate it was actually yoga, others a cartwheel at the request of a police officer, and Napoleoni et al said in court it was a spontaneous cartwheel that caused her to think Amanda was simply nutty.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi RWVBWL
I just can't bring myself to believe that anyone besides RG was in that room. Just as AK and RS, I believe that anyone besides RG would have left some trace no matter how small.

Hi Poppy1016,,
I can see your point, it is 1 that I too have wondered about...
With that said though, the investigators did not, I believe, do the greatest job that day. They video'd the bra clasp, but did not even collect it as evidence. Who know's what else they might have missed?

If someone else were there with Rudy, someone more experienced in disabling a person and then having the balls, so to say, to actually stab a young woman in the throat multiple times, he might be the same type of person that might have worn gloves and/or a nylon stocking mask, thereby minimising his chances of leaving any trace of himself there.

Though others might disagree, I believe that Rudy Guede was involved in the break-in at the lawyers office. But recalling an old Perugia Shock posting, I wonder who turned off the burglar alarm? Rudy, or someone else, someone more experienced?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

If this all happened while standing, I could see what you're saying. However, Meredith had marks on her hands where she planted her hands down on broken glass on the floor, most likely when she was all on fours after the first stab wound.
So, continuing with your scenario, Meredith grabs her throat with her hands, Rudy shoves her down on the floor to finish the job, gets her on all fours, grabs her jaw with one hand from behind still, and inflicts the final two wounds in her throat.

The police video captured just one piece of glass on the floor, near the doorway to the room, and not where she fell to all fours. She had knife cuts on her hands, but there were only a few. She wasn't facing her assailant in a prolonged struggle, which is the situation where you see a victim with multiple stab wounds to the chest and abdomen and hands with numerous defensive cuts. Meredith was killed by an assailant who got himself behind her, in the style of a mugger, and cut her throat.

The limited nature of the defensive wounds is suggested by the prosecution as "evidence" of multiple attackers, and this suggestion has been dutifully embraced by the credulous. It does not, however, map to the reality of what happened, as shown by the crime scene photos.

 

[Poppy1016]

Hi Poppy1016,,
I can see your point, it is 1 that I too have wondered about...
With that said though, the investigators did not, I believe, do the greatest job that day. They video'd the bra clasp, but did not even collect it as evidence. Who know's what else they might have missed?

If someone else were there with Rudy, someone more experienced in disabling a person and then having the balls, so to say, to actually stab a young woman in the throat multiple times, he might be the same type of person that might have worn gloves and/or a nylon stocking mask, thereby minimising his chances of leaving any trace of himself there.

Though others might disagree, I believe that Rudy Guede was involved in the break-in at the lawyers office. But recalling an old Perugia Shock posting, I wonder who turned off the burglar alarm? Rudy, or someone else, someone more experienced?

You make good points. One thing I've always said is how in the world did these break ins go unpunished and how is it that the connection couldn't be made between the break ins. It became obvious to me that the break in at the cottage followed his normal M.O. I still to this day think that RG was getting a free pass from the police as an informant.

 

[RWVBWL]

I don't have mind-reading powers or a time machine, so I just don't know. Maybe he was remorseful, maybe he didn't realise the extent of the wounds he'd inflicted and had the faint hope that Meredith might live so he wouldn't be facing a murder charge, maybe he had a vague idea about mopping up all the blood and hiding the body but realised when he started that it was just not going to happen.
All of the same questions arise if Meredith was murdered by three people, as I see it.

I remarked earlier on the error of cramming a fact into a narrative and counting it as evidence for the truth of that narrative. You can cram the towels in to the single-killer theory or the three-killer theory equally well, so it doesn't count as evidence for or against either.

Hi Keven Lowe,
Excellant points as always, and I'm impressed that you stated "you just don't know".

For some reason, I just find it really odd that Rudy, if he did indeed stab Meredith Kercher to her death,
then went into 1 of the bathrooms and got towels and brought them back...

I can see him possibly doing so if someone else did brutally stab Meredith and left quick,
and Rudy did try, in a weak attempt, to save her.

But I can also see any of the explanations that you wrote of happening too.

Time for some shuteye, take it easy everyone,
RWVBWL

 

[Kaosium]

Exactly, I often wondered why Rudy hasn't told everyone that Amanda and RS are innocent - especially now that his trial is over - there has to be a reason, one reason would be because they are not innocent, and he is not taking the rap all by himself, but another reason might be because he is protecting someone else.

I think he's probably protecting himself. Notably as now he's merely considered a dupe in the machinations of the diabolic duo, seemingly even by those most dedicated to Meredith's memory, which ought to make his life once released easier. Secondly as it stands he might just get out of prison while he's still a young man with further sentence reductions, which might be imperiled if he reveals he was lying about the tentative testimony he gave against Amanda and Raffaele.

What I don't understand is why he never went all the way with his accusations of Amanda and Raffaele, or for why it took him so long to 'play ball with the law.' It would seem he had the perfect patsies if he played his cards right, regardless of whether Amanda and Raffaele were involved at all. He knew they'd been arrested, he had details of the crime from the news, yet he comes up with total bilge instead of something that might have saved his tender bottom from the agonies of prison life.

I've considered theories embraced by you and RV, the problem is there's just nothing really to work with, and to truly explore it I'd have to look closely into the details of the sexual assault, which frankly I'm not much interested in doing.

 

[RWVBWL]

The police video captured just one piece of glass on the floor, near the doorway to the room, and not where she fell to all fours. She had knife cuts on her hands, but there were only a few. She wasn't facing her assailant in a prolonged struggle, which is the situation where you see a victim with multiple stab wounds to the chest and abdomen and hands with numerous defensive cuts. Meredith was killed by an assailant who got himself behind her, in the style of a mugger, and cut her throat.
The limited nature of the defensive wounds is suggested by the prosecution as "evidence" of multiple attackers, and this suggestion has been dutifully embraced by the credulous. It does not, however, map to the reality of what happened, as shown by the crime scene photos.

Hi all,
If anyone is curious about how easy it is to do this,
I suggest renting the movie Godfather 3. Chapter 5,
has Sonny's son Vincent in bed, with a redish-blonde woman, post-coital. She hears noises and when she gets up outta bed, a guy, with a nylon stocking mask covering his head, suddenly attacks her, cupping his hand over her mouth and then placing a knife against her throat. She is ambushed, immobilized and fear stricken.

Exactly how I picture what Meredith Kercher had went thru.
The guy even slices her throat at 1 point, it's gnarly...