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Merged Applicability of Bazant's model to the real world

Tom,

A simple set of questions were asked...


Tom, do you believe in the concept of crush down, then crush up?

Please explain to us little people why Bazant is correct when he claims that significant crush up is impossible before crush down is complete.

Is he wrong? Why or why not?



Nice simple answers please.

Back off, Junior.

Other than disclosing my name, I've never avoided answering any question simply, honestly & directly.

Unlike someone else in this conversation.

My question to Major Tom precedes his by a wide margin.

I'll expect the courtesy of a reply from him. THEN I'll be happy to answer that question simply, honestly & directly.
 
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Major Tom,

Pay attention to the Post Numbers please.

Post 1101
Major_Tom said:
I could, but who would be capable of understanding what I say?

Step 1: Realize there is no "Bazant model". There are 2 distinct models haveing very different applications and purposes.

Post 1107
tfk said:
Why don't you go ahead and explain the differences between the "two distinct models".

If you can find me an earlier post of yours asking me your questions, I'll happily answer first.

(Big clue. You won't find an earlier one.)

Apparently, you ALSO missed:

Post 1117
Post 1153

Post 1156

Post 1158

Post 1159

Post 1163

Post 1166

Post 1180


In each & every one of these, I requested that you provide the answer to YOUR assertion of the differences between BZ & BV. And that you demonstrate YOUR CLAIM that you can walk anyone thru sections 4 & 5 of BV.

In each & every one of those posts, I requested only that you explain your own assertions, that:
1. Post 1101
I could [explain the difference between BZ & BV], but who would be capable of understanding what I say?

Step 1: Realize there is no "Bazant model". There are 2 distinct models haveing very different applications and purposes.

2. Post 1109
The answer is somewhere is sections 4 and 5. Can you spot it? When you do, you will understand why this paper is such a freaking joke.
(if you cannot, let me know and we'll go over it together.)

___

Now, you are whining like a little girl about posts #1327 & 1328.

Hypocrite much?

You back up your own (earlier) assertions.

After you've done that satisfactorily, THEN I'll answer your questions.

Or refuse, and thereby continue to show yourself as a coward (afraid to reply to repeated requests), a bluffing buffoon (claiming to be able to understand & explain things that you demonstrably do not), and a fraud (repeated & baseless assertions of your unique understanding).
 
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I don't have to make it up. You dumped it. I'll quote it.

In posts 1346 and 1348, you and I agreed that you had contributed little in the way of technical comments.


As shown below, all three claims are true.

Here are some posts in which you were asked for something substantive:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6497823#post6497823
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6497931#post6497931
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6497984#post6497984
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6498691#post6498691
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6498782#post6498782
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6498989#post6498989
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6499205#post6499205
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6534945#post6534945
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6535070#post6535070
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6535121#post6535121
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6535211#post6535211
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6535220#post6535220
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6536441#post6536441
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6584673#post6584673
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6584740#post6584740
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6584751#post6584751
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6584851#post6584851
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6585403#post6585403
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6585412#post6585412
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6585489#post6585489
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6585930#post6585930
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6591792#post6591792
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6596204#post6596204
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6596294#post6596294
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6597202#post6597202
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6602549#post6602549
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6605963#post6605963
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6606317#post6606317
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6606392#post6606392
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6606528#post6606528
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6607042#post6607042
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6607388#post6607388
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6610050#post6610050
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6611309#post6611309
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6633596#post6633596
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6635261#post6635261
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6675485#post6675485

You ignored most of those requests, but here are some of the posts in which you more explicitly refused to do or say something substantive:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6585025#post6585025
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6585451#post6585451
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6586062#post6586062
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6596228#post6596228
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6597162#post6597162
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6606164#post6606164
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6606347#post6606347
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6606476#post6606476
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6606963#post6606963
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6607207#post6607207
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6607417#post6607417
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6633742#post6633742
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6637143#post6637143
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6672296#post6672296

And here are a few of your cheerleading posts:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6497744#post6497744
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6498506#post6498506
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6498822#post6498822
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6534906#post6534906
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6535148#post6535148
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6584600#post6584600
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6585527#post6585527
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6585735#post6585735
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6586070#post6586070
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6590924#post6590924
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6595788#post6595788
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6596321#post6596321
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6605297#post6605297
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6606789#post6606789


Had I been lying, the links above would not be there.

LoL.

Now that's gonna leave a mark...
 
you and I agreed that you had contributed little in the way of technical comments.
For the context in hand, absolutely, and an important indicator that we both understood the context :) sooo...

femr2 said:
WDC said:
A lot of people asked you to say something substantive, but you refused. I guess you had little to say beyond "hooray for our side".
Utter false nonsense.
WDC said:
As shown below, all three claims are true.

Here are some posts in which you were asked for something substantive:
ROFL. The context of this discussion is deformation as opposed to rigid tilt (or even core led initiation if y'like).

You must have FAR too much time on your hands.

Absolutely hilarious.

I guess you don't like being called a liar.

Unfortunately, you are, in the very post I'm responding to, engaging in, at best, childish and petty distortion of context, and at worst blatant deliberate lying to attempt to recover your percieved standing.

Oh dear Clinger. Respect, lack. xxx
 
Other than disclosing my name, I've never avoided answering any question simply, honestly & directly.
A simple set of questions were asked...


Tom, do you believe in the concept of crush down, then crush up?

Please explain to us little people why Bazant is correct when he claims that significant crush up is impossible before crush down is complete.

Is he wrong? Why or why not?


Nice simple answers please.
 
Here is a more complete list. Exact same questions I asked last May.


1) In BL, can you explain why Dr Bazant insists that crush down must be complete before crush up occurs. Does he mean this literally?

2) Do you consider the equations of motion in BL, equations 12 and 17, to be accurate considering the information in the ROOSD study?

3) Is the following statement true or false:

Dr Bazant believes that a crush-down phase must continue to completion before a crush up phase can begin.

If you answer false, please provide evidence to the contrary.

4) Is ROOSD consistent the claims of crush down preceding crush up in BV and BL?


.
....................................



5) Consider from BL:

"So it must be concluded that the simplifying hypothesis of
one-way crushing (i.e., of absence of simultaneous crush-up),
made in the original paper, was perfectly justified and caused
only an imperceptible difference in the results. The crush-up
simultaneous with the crush down is found to have advanced
into the overlying story by only 37 mm for the North Tower
and 26 mm for the South Tower. This means that the initial
crush-up phase terminates when the axial displacement of
columns is only about 10 times larger than their maximum
elastic deformation. Hence, simplifying the analysis by neglecting
the initial two-way crushing phase was correct and
accurate."

What does he mean by these claims? Do you really believe this crap?


6) Or how about this from BL:

"Blocks C and A can, of course, deform. Yet, contrary to
the discusser’s claim, they may be treated in calculations as
rigid because their elastic deformations are about 1,000 times
smaller than the deformations at the crushing front."

This is how Dr Bazant justifies the survival of the upper block until reaching earth in BL

Do you honestly believe this claim? (Do you hallucinate upper blocks, too)?


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This list serves as a way to guide the reader to fundamental weaknesses in Bazant's collapse progression model.

You can save months or years of your own time by just learning how to answer these questions.

Why don't some of the readers here actually try to overcome their laziness and answer your own questions about the meaning of your own Gospels.


It's a stupid mechanics. It's not mine. It's yours.

You apparently believe this stuff, so please take some responsibility to educate yourselves before proceeding.


Exact same questions asked in May, 2010, days after I started posting.. Look at how much time you waste with your own laziness.


TFK, these questions go to the heart of the matter. Yours are a further waste of time. If you cannot answer these, I have no idea why you would care about some missing symbol in some graph.


My prediction is you fall right on your face. I'll even take bets. You'll squirm about and act like a drama queen so you can avoid the questions.
 
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Published in 2007 and 2008. You had 3 years. You can't even read your own Gospels?

You need to ask me how to read them?
 
WDC, I'm trying to understand that list.

Seems pretty childish and meaningless. What is the point?
 
MT,
may I pick one of your questions to show the methodological problems I have with you?

...
6) Or how about this from BL:

"Blocks C and A can, of course, deform. Yet, contrary to
the discusser’s claim, they may be treated in calculations as
rigid because their elastic deformations are about 1,000 times
smaller than the deformations at the crushing front."

This is how Dr Bazant justifies the survival of the upper block until reaching earth in BL

Do you honestly believe this claim? (Do you hallucinate upper blocks, too)?
...

Why are you asking for a belief? How would an answer further our quest to find the best answers to the ultimate questions at hand?
BL contains the assumptions, the formulas and the math to show that the upper block would indeed stand a very good chance of staying largely assembled until crush-down is done.
I know way too little about structural engineering to fully assess B&L's assumptions, formulas and math.
I do understand however that the discussion that Bazant replied to was done very incompetently by an amateur.

It doesn't matter if tfk, WDC, I or you believe Bazant or not. What it takes is for you to show that
- the assumptions aren't well conceived,
- the formulas are wrong or n/a,
- or the math is faulty


To answer the question "Do you honestly believe this claim?" my tentative answer is: Yes, I do believe BL's claims. Why? Because I have seen no competent argument against it, and I am too much of an amateur to argue with experts on the matter.
If you say you don't believe them, I won't follow you, because I do not know that you are an eminent expert. In fact I already know that you suck at math and geometry and are very stubborn when it comes to correcting your own mistakes.
Maybe B&L also suck at math and are stubborn - I don't know. So from everything I know, I have reason to distrust you, and no reason to distrust them.
Yes, this is an argument from authority, but not from false authority.
 
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Oystein, then you hallucinate upper blocks, too.

Do you have any idea what Bazant is claiming there? Do you have the slightest clue what he is really claiming?

I don't believe that for a minute. I know it didn't happen. I think you would have to be a real chump to believe that claim.

If you don't even understand what he claims, how can we communicate?



He is saying that the great upper block crushes the lower 98 floors but remains relatively undamaged itself. Only "harmless elastic waves" travel though it. That is the reality. You didn't even know that, did you?


I think you would need to be a real chump to believe that.

Now that you know what it means, do you still believe it?
 
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Oystein, then you hallucinate upper blocks, too.

I think that is "poisoning the well"

Do you have any idea what Bazant is claiming there? Do you have the slightest clue what he is really claiming?

Walk me through it, please!

I don't believe that for a minute. I know it didn't happen. I think you would have to be a real chump to believe that claim.

Where is your argument? Did you address the assumptions? The formulas? The math? Or do I miss anything that can be addressed and that you have addressed? Or is this just your private "I can't imagine..."?

If you don't even understand what he claims, how can we communicate?

Explain it to me, please!

He is saying that the great upper block crushes the lower 98 floors but remains relatively undamaged itself. Only "harmless elastic waves" travel though it. That is the reality. You didn't even know that, did you?

Duh. Of course I knew that.

I think you would need to be a real chump to believe that.

Is that your argument?

Now that you know what it means, do you still believe it?

Yes. Because you didn't present an argument that actually addresses BL.
 
Oystein, then you hallucinate upper blocks, too.

Do you have any idea what Bazant is claiming there? Do you have the slightest clue what he is really claiming?

I don't believe that for a minute. I know it didn't happen. I think you would have to be a real chump to believe that claim.

If you don't even understand what he claims, how can we communicate?



He is saying that the great upper block crushes the lower 98 floors but remains relatively undamaged itself. Only "harmless elastic waves" travel though it. That is the reality. You didn't even know that, did you?


I think you would need to be a real chump to believe that.

Now that you know what it means, do you still believe it?

All handwave no math.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NwFHEoiUZ7o
 
I don't believe that for a minute. I know it didn't happen. I think you would have to be a real chump to believe that claim.

Over in the main CT forum there's a poster regularly adopting this form of argument to support his "moon landings were faked" opinion. It fails because it contains no substance whatsoever. It's pure argument from incredulity to put it technically. So, to avoid being lumped in with guys like that, fire away with some science.
 
Over in the main CT forum there's a poster regularly adopting this form of argument to support his "moon landings were faked" opinion. It fails because it contains no substance whatsoever. It's pure argument from incredulity to put it technically. So, to avoid being lumped in with guys like that, fire away with some science.

MT has repeatedly posted links to the *upper block* perimeter peeling behaviour, in addition to other observables.

At the very least that peeling alone renders the *intact upper block* as a central core with totally unsupported OOS flooring flapping around, which will clearly be stripped (weakest links and all that).

Whilst *science*, by which I assume you mean *debunking the math*, is useful at times, that's really not the point here.

As I've said repeatedly, I personally have no problem with the simple *there's enough energy available* argument from Bazant et al, given that it's essentially an energetics based limiting case mathematical model.

The point is that it is obvious, if you've bothered to actually look at video in any detail, that the upper block does not remain intact at all, but is rapidly fragmented. Perimeter stripped very early, rotation continuing with the obvious end result that the remaining OOS flooring is also stripped from the core. Exactly what happens to the core is not obvious from video inspection, but the upper block is, how shall I say...mashed-up, rapidly.

ETA: Observations relate to WTC1 in this instance.
 
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For the context in hand, absolutely, and an important indicator that we both understood the context :) sooo...
If you were assuming a more limited context than was I, then I suggest you make your assumptions more explicit.

WDC, I'm trying to understand that list.

Seems pretty childish and meaningless. What is the point?
As can be seen from that list, your "WTC 1 Features List, Initiation Model" thread was childish, meaningless, and pointless.

Its meaninglessness resulted from your and femr2's childish refusals to explain the point of your technobabble or to do what engineers and scientists do when they believe they have found significant errors in published results.

My point here is that you appear determined to do the same thing in this thread.

It's been almost a month since you wrote this:
I could, but who would be capable of understanding what I say?
That sentence has not aged well.

As in that other thread, you are ignoring requests to post something substantive:
Actually what I am waiting for is your explanation on the difference between the models in BZ and BV that you so far have stated to exist without proof and TFK has asked you about, since that will help focusing the main topic of the thread.

Walk me through it, please!

Where is your argument? Did you address the assumptions? The formulas? The math? Or do I miss anything that can be addressed and that you have addressed? Or is this just your private "I can't imagine..."?

All handwave no math.

Over in the main CT forum there's a poster regularly adopting this form of argument to support his "moon landings were faked" opinion. It fails because it contains no substance whatsoever. It's pure argument from incredulity to put it technically. So, to avoid being lumped in with guys like that, fire away with some science.


Get to it, Major_Tom. You have an opportunity here to redeem yourself. Will you take advantage of that opportunity, or will you give us more of the same?
 
the upper block is, how shall I say...mashed-up, rapidly.

In addition, the accepted mechanism of descent (ROOSD, Pancaking, call it what you will...) absolutely REQUIRES fragmentation of the upper block.

Again, multiple observable behaviours support the ROOSD mechanisms.

So, what do you want, an intact upper block acting as a pile-driver and the behavioural limitations implied by such, or a mashed-up upper block providing the fragmented driving mass required for the ~28m/s North/South split crush front ROOSD propogation ? ;)
 
In addition, the accepted mechanism of descent (ROOSD, Pancaking, call it what you will...) absolutely REQUIRES fragmentation of the upper block.

Again, multiple observable behaviours support the ROOSD mechanisms.

So, what do you want, an intact upper block acting as a pile-driver and the behavioural limitations implied by such, or a mashed-up upper block providing the fragmented driving mass required for the ~28m/s North/South split crush front ROOSD propogation ? ;)

The Bazant model(s) do not claim a fully intact upper block. Initially, it/they allow(s) for a little crush up, where the first one or two stories above initiation zone are crushed. After that initial simultaneous crush-up+down, enough mass in the crushed zone (B) has accrued and picked up enough momentum to act as a pile-driver on the lower part, whilst mostly saving the upper part from further crushing.
 
The Bazant model(s) do not claim a fully intact upper block. Initially, it/they allow(s) for a little crush up, where the first one or two stories above initiation zone are crushed. After that initial simultaneous crush-up+down, enough mass in the crushed zone (B) has accrued and picked up enough momentum to act as a pile-driver on the lower part, whilst mostly saving the upper part from further crushing.

In fact, it could equally be argued that the crush-down, crush-up model also absolutely REQUIRES fragmentation of the upper block, albeit self-terminating fragmentation.

Dave
 
The Bazant model(s) do not claim a fully intact upper block. Initially, it/they allow(s) for a little crush up, where the first one or two stories above initiation zone are crushed. After that initial simultaneous crush-up+down, enough mass in the crushed zone (B) has accrued and picked up enough momentum to act as a pile-driver on the lower part, whilst mostly saving the upper part from further crushing.

Which would be a great virtual image, if there was zero rotation, and perpetual axial column impacts, in a 1D world....with zero treatment of elements failing at the weakest point (OOS to perimeter/core connections in this case.)

Unfortunately, in the real world, that's not what happened.

The *crush-down followed by crush-up* scenario exists only in that simplified virtual world.

It does not exist in the real world, and is not expected to.

Evidence of the very early peeling of the WTC 1 upper block perimeter is one of numerous ways to confirm that, as is all the discussion about tilt, as is...
 
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The *crush-down followed by crush-up* scenario exists only in that simplified virtual world.
I could perhaps agree, but that doesn't prove in itself that the (necessarily) simplified mathematical model can't be applied to the real scenario, even assuming FEMA's pancake collapse of the exterior flooring as right. I opened this thread to discuss whether it can be applied or not to the real world; however, some people are just assuming and stating it can't, without proof or discussion, and blame the author of the model as if he was hallucinating. That's just propaganda: there's no basis to sustain the claims, just claims that there is a basis, but every time they're asked about, the dog ate them.

But I still need to know how many models are we talking about. MT, care to explain the difference between the models in BZ and BV, please?
 
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