Merged Rep. Giffords Shot In Tucson

Skeptic Ginger said:
... can the incessant "fear the government" campaign tactic also increase the likelihood such an unstable person will act out their paranoia? Yes.
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Your problem is you'll never be able to conclusively show precisely what his overall pattern of speech said about his motive in killing people.

Rather you continue to insist that YOU somehow magically are endowed with the ability to understand his speech patterns and the intrinsic meaning each word has held for him.

Let me tell you as someone educated and degreed in psychology; who has years of field experience: you DON'T have that understanding and it's mighty arrogant and naive of you to assume you do.
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Well, you asked which of your claims I was referring to, I presented it (again), and you have thrice fallen into a curious, awkward silence. You know how to talk but you aren't too skilled at backing a claim, are you?
 
ProbeX said:
Well, you asked which of your claims I was referring to, I presented it (again), and you have thrice fallen into a curious, awkward silence. You know how to talk but you aren't too skilled at backing a claim, are you?
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Awkward silence? :rolleyes:

This typical post tactic, claiming a person didn't answer, is just a form of an ad hom when debate points are lacking.

[Summary] A lot of circumstantial evidence has been presented.
You don't think it is enough. I do. [/summary]
 
Biscuit said:
True, a crazy person that wants to kill will most likely find a way. However as a gun owning liberal I have zero problem with people not having 33 round clips. It appears that Jared was not very proficient with his gun having only owned it for a few months and was having trouble with it when he decided to reload. If he had less bullets we would be looking at less death.

My concealed carry piece is a .40 Kahr. It holds seven rounds and one in the pipe. Most gun fights occur at a distance of less than 5 feet. If I can't hit a target from 5 feet with 8 tries I shouldn't be firing a gun in the first place. I practice at up to 25 feet but I spend most of my range time at 5 and 10 feet.

I think we can reasonably say that having the capacity to fire 66 rounds with two clips is way more than anyone needs for self defense. At that point you are carrying an offensive weapon.

You can argue that in the hands of a crazy person one bullet is one to many but what really is the need for citizens to carry that many rounds in one clip? I always laugh when I see open carry with 5 or six extra clips, I assume the owner is a terrible shot.
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I respect what you have written, however I want to point out the bolded part.

I am also OK with no one having 33 round magazines, I happen to have 4 of them for my Glock 34 which is used for competition where I use those magazines in legitimate ways, if it was illegal I would not have them as I am big on following the law or working to change it.

The big problem here is that we are just wishing that these things did not exist, we are not asking what would it take to make them not exist.

The answer sadly is they already do exist, that making them illegal would no more remove them from the streets then illicit drugs being illegal has removed them from the street aka black market.

I am afraid its all about supply and demand, and the government has shown time after time it has no practical solution to this issue of small easily concealable items being sold on the black market.

The reality of the situation is that no amount of banning items ends up in greater safety. It requires hand waving to even think it does. Ultimately we are talking about low tech easily manufactured items with a consistent demand that are easily hidden and shipped into country. The future is here and this line of reasoning is flawed without removing all semblance of privacy and freedom.




The last part "I always laugh when I see open carry with 5 or six extra clips, I assume the owner is a terrible shot. "

The FBI issued a warning to the police gang squads when they found many gang bangers carrying these high capacity magazines. They advised that officers carry many extra magazines in case they encountered a person with these magazines. The reality is, if someone else has a weapon with 33 rounds in it, and you only have a single magazine with 8-17 rnds in it, a real firefight could end with you out of ammo and the villain walking up and executing you. I have no direct citations, but have reason to believe this has happened based on the reports I read. The FBI also showed that criminals always conceal their weapons (some would say for obvious reasons) in that light I will always (when legally able) open carry mine. Here is the kicker, most criminals will not have that huge 33 rnd mag in the gun when concealing it, that means they are going to prepare the gun for there assault loading the weapon or its a spare for reload.

Honestly its my opinion that the old saying that if you need more than x # of bullets you need to be a better shot is fallacy.

Its based entirely on range conditions with no stress involved and a target that is not firing back nor ducking for cover. Its idealistic garbage at best. If you think you may actually get into a real situation with someone shooting at you, carry as many bullets as you can.
 
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I have a hard time seeing the utility of those 33 round clips as well.
 
I wonder if the Glock is subject to the same possibility to go full-auto as the standard Colt gummint model is, when the sear is worked on a bit?
Zipping through those 33 rounds in a couple seconds would be a (noisy) rush! :)
 
Xulld said:
The answer sadly is they already do exist, that making them illegal would no more remove them from the streets then illicit drugs being illegal has removed them from the street aka black market.
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Try coming back from Amsterdam through customs with a gun with an extended clip stuck up your arse. I have a longer answer, but I think that makes the point. I realize the US is in a somewhat different position, but I think the point stands.
 
Rat said:
Try coming back from Amsterdam through customs with a gun with an extended clip stuck up your arse. I have a longer answer, but I think that makes the point. I realize the US is in a somewhat different position, but I think the point stands.
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Well you'd only need to fit the hypothetically banned magazine up your arse.. Could probably manage more than one. If you did want to smuggle an entire gun you'd just need to cram the receiver up there, the rest you can mail. Also the empty receiver could probably fit a fair amount of cocaine in it.. Synergy!

Right now I don't think the scarcity/price of guns on the black market would warrant this type of trafficking. Triple or quadruple the price and people might start.
 
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Rep Congressman on tonight "Last Word" just argued that Loughner would've shot just as many people if the magazines only held 10 rounds vs 30.....
 
thaiboxerken said:
Rep Congressman on tonight "Last Word" just argued that Loughner would've shot just as many people if the magazines only held 10 rounds vs 30.....
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It's far too speculative to say what effect clip sizes would have had on the casualties.. If he hadn't ended up in the specific circumstances that led to him being tackled (zigged instead of zagged for instance) he may have been able to fire 50 rounds out of 10 round magazines.. Or maybe he would have been tackled after his first reload and only gotten 10 shots off. Without a detailed tactical analysis of this specific incident people are just guessing.
 
I take it that congressman has access to the alternate universe where that scenario played out and can therefore be completely sure.
 
thaiboxerken said:
Uhm. No. The guys that tackled him were in close proximity from the very beginning.
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Can you point me to where you found this more detailed information? Like I say a detailed analysis could tell us what effect magazine sizes could have had on this particular incident.

The "just as many people" guy was probably just guessing, there are plenty of imaginable scenarios where reload frequency wouldn't make a big difference but this may not have been one.
 
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