In Teabagistan Schools Will Be Segregated

[drkitten]

this whole argument depends on whether "White" means wealthy and "Black" means poor.

And the fact is, being white is NOT synonymous with having money, and being black is NOT synonymous with being poor.

Synonymous, no. But highly correlated. And precisely because of the way that racial segregation by neighborhood correlates with income disparity by race, desegregation by race is a good first approach to solving the problem.

Don't let the best become the enemy of the merely good.

 

[Thunder]

Synonymous, no. But highly correlated. And precisely because of the way that racial segregation by neighborhood correlates with income disparity by race, desegregation by race is a good first approach to solving the problem.

Don't let the best become the enemy of the merely good.

the fact is that desegregation helps poor black kids, but not poor white kids.

don't poor white kids deserve a good education too?

 

[TraneWreck]

the fact is that desegregation helps poor black kids, but not poor white kids.

don't poor white kids deserve a good education too?

Stay with me on this one because it gets complicated.

What if we desegregated the schools to help the poor black kids then helped the poor white kids?

 

[Thunder]

Stay with me on this one because it gets complicated.

What if we desegregated the schools to help the poor black kids then helped the poor white kids?

desegregation has been going on for how many years now?


when do we start busing poor white kids to they can get a better education?

 

[TraneWreck]

desegregation has been going on for how many years now?


when do we start busing poor white kids to they can get a better education?

Ah yes, the "pour toilet water on it" argument.

Because a solution solves one problem, that doesn't mean it can solve all problems. There are reasons beyond simple educational attainment for desegregating the schools, and as you've shown, the process doesn't benefit poor white students (though it doesn't really hurt them).

Thus, we should help poor white students through means other than busing. I'm relatively certain we can come up with a number of plans that don't involve shipping children from one place to another.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

the fact is that desegregation helps poor black kids, but not poor white kids.

don't poor white kids deserve a good education too?

Do you have evidence it hurts the white kids?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

desegregation has been going on for how many years now?


when do we start busing poor white kids to they can get a better education?

Well if you read the OP school example, they used poverty as the identifier for their diversity goal, not ethnic identity. It happened that most of the poor were minorities, but if there were poor white kids, they weren't being left out.

You are usually more liberal than this, where did this shoulder chip come from?

 

[ZirconBlue]

Not addressing the negative aspects of US history is a recipe for stunting kids' intellectual growth, leaving them with "George Washington was the first president, the end."

Don't forget the wooden teeth, and chopping down the cherry tree.

when do we start busing poor white kids to they can get a better education?

Well, the system discussed in the OP buses students to maintain economic diversity, not racial diversity. So, in fact, we are already "busing poor white kids to get a better education". The new school board has been working to undo that.

 

[Thunder]

Well, the system discussed in the OP buses students to maintain economic diversity, not racial diversity. So, in fact, we are already "busing poor white kids to get a better education". The new school board has been working to undo that.

oh yeah? poor white kids are being bused to wealthier white areas?

 

[ZirconBlue]

oh yeah? poor white kids are being bused to wealthier white areas?

Based on the local coverage, I believe that to be the case, but I'm not sure how that can be proven or disproven. If they are not, it's not because they are white, but just luck of the draw. The policy doesn't take race into account.

 

[BeAChooser]

Another public education success …

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/detroit-may-close-half-of-its-schools-to-pay-for-union-benefits/

DETROIT MAY CLOSE HALF OF ITS SCHOOLS TO PAY FOR UNION BENEFITS

January 17, 2011

A report from the Detroit News Monday suggested that without government aid, the city of Detroit will be forced to close down nearly half of the city’s public schools in the next two years. Additionally, the paper warns that average high school class sizes will swell to 62 students by the following year.

By the way, the Detroit public school graduation rate is 25-40%, depending on who you believe. At a cost of over $13,000 per student, if you believe the numbers claimed by the school system (which are not to be believed). And you folks trust the same people who got the schools into this mess to get it out? If so, maybe PT Barnum was right.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Another public education success …

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/detroit-may-close-half-of-its-schools-to-pay-for-union-benefits/



By the way, the Detroit public school graduation rate is 25-40%, depending on who you believe. At a cost of over $13,000 per student, if you believe the numbers claimed by the school system (which are not to be believed). And you folks trust the same people who got the schools into this mess to get it out? If so, maybe PT Barnum was right.

Of course we couldn't possibly tax any millionaires more than a small fraction of a fraction of their total income (earned income (IE not dividends, interest, rental income or capital gains) after deductions), so teachers could get decent wages and decent benefits, now could we?

 

[Ziggurat]

Of course we couldn't possibly tax any millionaires more than a small fraction of a fraction of their total income (earned income (IE not dividends, interest, rental income or capital gains) after deductions), so teachers could get decent wages and decent benefits, now could we?

Where's the evidence that raising those increases the quality of education?

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

Oh, Beck. You know how to report just what is needed to support your POV

 

[Cleon]

Another public education success …

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/detroit-may-close-half-of-its-schools-to-pay-for-union-benefits/



By the way, the Detroit public school graduation rate is 25-40%, depending on who you believe. At a cost of over $13,000 per student, if you believe the numbers claimed by the school system (which are not to be believed). And you folks trust the same people who got the schools into this mess to get it out? If so, maybe PT Barnum was right.

I think that has less to do with public schools in general and more to do with the fact that Detroit is little more than a post-industrial wasteland these days.

Judging public schools by the situation in Detroit is akin to judging Republicans based on Basil Marceaux.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/at-public-school-anti-americanism-hides-in-plain-sight/?singlepage=true

Textbook case of appeal to consequences duly noted, and there's a good reason why that's a fallacy and not, say, valid logic.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I have a major problem with modern-day desegregation politics.

Yes, but it mainly stems for your lack of knowledge. Most "desegregation" is achieved on an economic basis, not racial. Read up and you will be relieved to know that most of your concerns are unfounded and there are a whole host of other concerns that you haven't even considered.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Where's the evidence that raising those increases the quality of education?

You want evidence that better pay attracts better quality teachers including attracting better quality teachers into the profession itself?

I think I'll leave that to historical evidence and common sense.

 

[Ziggurat]

You want evidence that better pay attracts better quality teachers including attracting better quality teachers into the profession itself?

I think I'll leave that to historical evidence and common sense.

That's not what I asked for. I asked for evidence that an increase in teacher pay/benefits improves educational outcomes. And I note that you haven't actually provided any "historical evidence" either.

And even in regards to teacher quality, what you assume to be common sense rests on some assumptions which you may not even be aware you're making. In order for increased pay to result in better teachers, you need a hiring process that actually selects for quality with some degree of accuracy. If your hiring process is random, an increase in pay can actually DECREASE teacher quality, because it may attract more new bad applicants than new good applicants. Do schools know what they're doing when they make hiring decisions? It doesn't look like they do.

So once again, where is the evidence than an increase in teacher pay leads to an increase in educational outcomes? And if you resort to "common sense" again, Skeptic Ginger, go sit in the corner for ten minutes and think about what you've done wrong.

 

[BeAChooser]

Of course we couldn't possibly tax any millionaires more than a small fraction of a fraction of their total income (earned income (IE not dividends, interest, rental income or capital gains) after deductions), so teachers could get decent wages and decent benefits, now could we?

So you think Detroit teacher salaries and benefits are the problem? LOL!

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_50.htm

January 2007

How Much Are Public School Teachers Paid?

… snip …

The Detroit metropolitan area has the highest average public school teacher pay among metropolitan areas for which data are available, at $47.28 per hour, followed by the San Francisco metropolitan area at $46.70 per hour, and the New York metropolitan area at $45.79 per hour.

We find no evidence that average teacher pay relative to that of other white-collar or professional specialty workers is related to high school graduation rates in the metropolitan area.

http://detnews.com/article/20101118/METRO/11180420/High-teacher-salaries-under-scrutiny-in-Michigan

November 18. 2010

High teacher salaries under scrutiny in Michigan

… snip …

The average Michigan teacher made $56,096 in 2009, according to the National Education Association, ranking the state 11th in the nation. But Michigan ranked 36th in median income last year, the result of a decade-long recession that hit the state's manufacturing base especially hard.