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Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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I'm not disagreing with you in regard to these cases but what about the case of Amanda Knox? Totally different, this is an American tried and convicted in a foreign country

Look what happened to Lori Berenson.

Why are you forgetting Raffaele? I am interested in his freedom as well. When I argue for innocence he is included. He may have a base of support in Italy but he also has support here. Boundaries between countries are not as hard to overcome with the internet nowadays.
 
In addition to representing AT&T, the Seattle Seahawks and Alaska Airlines, Gogerty Marriott also does PR for....you guessed it, Amanda Knox!



She's one of their "showcase" clients.

In case you don't know, here's what Gogerty Marriott does:



http://www.gogertymarriott.com/showcase

If he is a good PR guy and he is helping get Knox freed then he is doing a good thing in my view. Getting paid for doing something that is a good thing is even better. Nice job, as far as I am concerned.
 
In addition to representing AT&T, the Seattle Seahawks and Alaska Airlines, Gogerty Marriott also does PR for....you guessed it, Amanda Knox!

She's one of their "showcase" clients.

In case you don't know, here's what Gogerty Marriott does:

http://www.gogertymarriott.com/showcase


Well, have you ever heard of the term "straw man"?

I'll repeat: what's your evidence that David Marriott or his company are engaging in a widescale paid PR campaign on behalf of Amanda Knox? As I said before, Marriott is assisting Knox's family in handling media requests, and as per the case study, Marriott is also facilitating contact with TV networks. Have you actually read the Knox case study on the Gogerty Marriott website?

And what makes you think that Marriott is somehow magically forcing the US networks to carry interviews with Knox's family? Do you think that Marriott has some sort of mystical hold over US national TV networks? Or UK newspapers? Or any media outlet, for that matter?

You might want to give this argument up now: you're wrong.
 
Why are you forgetting Raffaele? I am interested in his freedom as well. When I argue for innocence he is included. He may have a base of support in Italy but he also has support here. Boundaries between countries are not as hard to overcome with the internet nowadays.

Agreed. And nearly all of the people who've commented on this case in the media have questioned the safety of Knox's and Sollecito's convictions equally.
 
Why are you forgetting Raffaele? I am interested in his freedom as well. When I argue for innocence he is included. He may have a base of support in Italy but he also has support here. Boundaries between countries are not as hard to overcome with the internet nowadays.

He only has support here (I'm assuming you mean U.S.) because he was supposedly her "boyfriend". Honestly Rose, would have taken any notice of this case if it was just an Italian man who was accused of murdering a British woman?
 
He only has support here (I'm assuming you mean U.S.) because he was supposedly her "boyfriend". Honestly Rose, would have taken any notice of this case if it was just an Italian man who was accused of murdering a British woman?

Honestly: yes. In the UK, if not in the US.
 
Martin Luther King quote

In Honor of Martin Luther King Jr. Day - one of his quotes:

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere"
 
what's your evidence that David Marriott or his company are engaging in a widescale paid PR campaign on behalf of Amanda Knox?

Gogerty Marriott’s work for the family has brought them in touch with all major U.S. news networks – ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN and Fox News, as well as independent programs such as Oprah Winfrey and a host of national and international magazines and newspapers.

How do you get on Oprah? Do I just send her an email?
 
Alt+F4,

Can you offer proof that a huge, professional PR campaign is going on in her behalf?

And to clarify, when say the PR is working I mean her parents making numerous TV appearances, and people like Steve Moore doing likewise. Doesn't mean I think Moore is doing it for any sort of monetary compensation.
 
He only has support here (I'm assuming you mean U.S.) because he was supposedly her "boyfriend". Honestly Rose, would have taken any notice of this case if it was just an Italian man who was accused of murdering a British woman?

Probably not. But I am following the Sarah Scazzi case because of it. Sabrina Misseri is sitting in jail innocent of her cousins murder in my opinion. There are two other cases in Italy that I check in on occasionally as well. I will continue commenting on Sabrina Misseri even if I have to do so on Italian sites because I believe she has been railroaded in the same manner as Raffaele and Amanda.
 
If he is a good PR guy and he is helping get Knox freed then he is doing a good thing in my view. Getting paid for doing something that is a good thing is even better. Nice job, as far as I am concerned.

Ok, so then you agree that Amanda Knox has a slick, professional PR firm working for her, pushing her innocence in the English-speaking media. My point was to call out the lie that posters are making that she does not have a heavy hitting, expensive PR firm behind her.
 
lightning rod

He only has support here (I'm assuming you mean U.S.) because he was supposedly her "boyfriend". Honestly Rose, would have taken any notice of this case if it was just an Italian man who was accused of murdering a British woman?

Alt+F4,

I might never had heard of this case but for the blog Simple Justice, which (IIRC) mentioned Knox more than Sollecito. Yet if ILE released Knox and not Sollecito tomorrow, I would say, "Great; we are halfway there. Now time to figure out how to achieve the other half of making things right." This case is just as much about him as it is about her, although I will grant that she has been a lightning rod.
 
Ok, so then you agree that Amanda Knox has a slick, professional PR firm working for her, pushing her innocence in the English-speaking media. My point was to call out the lie that posters are making that she does not have a heavy hitting, expensive PR firm behind her.

Beats me. If he is, that is a good thing, is my point. I am not on the payroll. You can quote me.
 
walking a mile in their moccasins

Ok, so then you agree that Amanda Knox has a slick, professional PR firm working for her, pushing her innocence in the English-speaking media. My point was to call out the lie that posters are making that she does not have a heavy hitting, expensive PR firm behind her.

Alt+F4,

How much are they being paid? Are they doing anything pro bono (law firms sometimes do a bit of both)? I think you are not addressing two things. One is that ILE released false information, in effect creating bad publicity. Two is that there are limits on what PR can do, as Kaosium discussed in the paragraphs I quoted. I would have hired a PR firm if I had been in Edda Mellas's shoes on the basis of what ILE did and what the tabloid press did. Would you?
 
don't show me the money

Beats me. If he is, that is a good thing, is my point. I am not on the payroll. You can quote me.

I am not on anyone's payroll, and I am willing to bet that neither is Michael Krom. I am also willing to bet that the defendants and their families are grateful for the support in the blogosphere and on op-ed pages.
 
Alt+F4,

How much are they being paid? Are they doing anything pro bono (law firms sometimes do a bit of both)? I think you are not addressing two things. One is that ILE released false information, in effect creating bad publicity. Two is that there are limits on what PR can do, as Kaosium discussed in the paragraphs I quoted. I would have hired a PR firm if I had been in Edda Mellas's shoes on the basis of what ILE did and what the tabloid press did. Would you?

I don't think he would. I would get me a defense team that could play the media like a banjo, personally. Unlike Alt+F4 I don't have an idealistic view of the justice system (here or in Italy).
 
I am not on anyone's payroll, and I am willing to bet that neither is Michael Krom. I am also willing to bet that the defendants and their families are grateful for the support in the blogosphere and on op-ed pages.

I wonder if there is some useful information in the experience of Eric Volz, who was suspected of murdering his former girlfriend in Nicaragua. It seems as if Mary Ellen Finnerty decided to pay it forward, with respect to some of the support that she and her son received in the DL case.
__________________

That is a great example.
 
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@Kevin_Lowe:
Yes, of course it wasn`t an "advanced problem" in probability theory. Didn`t I mention this in my initial post?
I`ve earned some knowledge in probability theory/statistics due to my university education, so it wasn`t that difficult for me to construct this problem.
My intention was to pick one of the many scientific fields, of which you (indirectly or not) claim to have some deeper understanding and post a problem to check whether you are in possesion of the basic knowledge in this field and are able to apply it.

It's reasonable you should be interested in this issue, but wouldn't it make a lot more sense to focus on the specific science-based claims which are pertinent to this case?

As I said earlier, even if you "caught me out" on some issue unrelated to the case, at best this would give you very weak reason to believe that I was wrong on a matter pertaining to the case, especially since everything I have argued for I have argued for in public, with multiple watchful eyes on me some of whom do know quite a lot about the relevant science or maths.

Is it unreasonable of me to suspect that you are trying to set us abstract maths problems as a substitute for criticising the relevant science and reasoning, because you have no good criticisms of the relevant science and reasoning to make?

I mean, my goal wasn`t to show you up, but rather to get a confirmation of my feeling, that you`re sometimes (or often? I`m not sure) using scientific fields, of which you don`t know much about, to bolster your arguments.
Reading your many posts in this thread, I think, that you are anything but "scientifically illiterate", as you would call it, but that you are treading on thin ice, when you are "using science", that you (sometimes/often) hardly understand, to repeatedly declare, that you are much smarter than more than a dozen judges/jurors and a lot of (real) experts so far and tell, that you have "proven", although, which is another point, none of us has access to all the evidence in this case, that the defendants are innocent.

As a rational person I'm cautious about making such claims, but when I've done my work and checked my work and that's exactly what is happening then I don't refrain from saying so on the basis of false modesty.

That said, the meme that "experts got it wrong" on these issues is misleading to say the least. Dr Lalli and Professor Introna got the time of death right, pretty much.

If you read closely and follow the magician's hands, Professors Norelli, Ronchi and Cingolani actually never say in the Massei report that a t(lag) of five hours is plausible. They are quoted as making some claims about t(1/2), and some claims about how stomach contents analysis is not generally all that reliable, and that stomach contents analysis can vary by one to twelve hours. Follow the magician's hands though. Is it possible that stomach contents conclusions can vary by one to twelve hours under different circumstances, but that in this case we can still draw a hard line at 22:30 as the very upper limit of the possible time of death? Is it possible that t(1/2) can be five hours but t(lag) cannot? Is it possible that even though stomach contents analysis is not usually reliable that in this particular case it's good enough to contradict the prosecution theory decisively?

Well technically yes, you might say, but it's certainly not the impression you get, is it? If you weren't careful reading pages 181-183 of the original report (177-179 of the PMF translation) you could certainly come away with the idea that Norelli, Ronchi and Cingolani had actually contradicted the t(lag) argument, as opposed to being quoted as saying various other things that never quite addressed the point. So either they did in fact address it and Massei/Christiani left those vital pieces of evidence out, or Massei/Christiani are being very sneaky in cherry-picking sound bites to dance around an inconvenient scientific fact. They wouldn't do that, would they? Surely if you come away from a naive reading of the passage thinking X is true, X must be true right?

Then again the magician's hands did go below the table for a second there... are you quite sure that you saw what you thought you saw? Especially given that when we do the same thing with our hands above the table, we get the conclusion that Meredith Kercher could not possibly have died at 23:30?
 
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