Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Danceme]

I think this is the what I am remembering the dark room from:

"We asked the police to open the door but they said they couldn't so we decided to do it. Luca gave the door, which had a crack (a scratch, rotten part) near the handle, about four kicks and it opened. The room was quite dark but I was just able to see (just for a second???) a foot protruding from a cover.​

The quote is reposted on several blogs but SeattlePI seems to be the first english reference. I haven't found it in any Italian texts yet.

Who's quote is that? I thought Amanda and Raffaele were out in the kitchen area when the door was broken down so neither of them could have seen in. The angle of vision just wouldn't have been there.


On another note, from Ron Hendry's report,

"A close inspection of the photos also shows that the killer wiped blood from several areas near where Meredith's body was found. This would account for the large amount of blood found on the large white towel lying on the floor. A green towel and the top bed sheet may have also been used to wipe up blood on the floor."

and,

"In the photo above, the areas inside and perhaps near the outline appear to have been wiped. Areas by the bed also had this appearance."

Is he actually saying there's evidence of a cleanup?

 

[RoseMontague]

OK I wrote up the explanation on windowserver.log

1) If anybody ever gets the actual contents of the log file that were generated that would make the article much stronger.

2) Let me know what you think. Was it useful in covering the computer forensics?

You did pretty well. I got about half way through before you lost me, which isn't to bad, really. I also like Halides1 because he does a similar thing with the DNA evidence, making it fairly understandable. I get the general sense that your post destroys the police claim that there is no alibi evidence on the computer simply because they did not know where or how to look for it or just didn't try very hard to find it. That makes the request for additional expert opinion of the computers a very important request that may come to a decision at some point in the process. There could very well be some alibi evidence on the computer that the police "missed".

 

[el buscador]

Who's quote is that? I thought Amanda and Raffaele were out in the kitchen area when the door was broken down so neither of them could have seen in. The angle of vision just wouldn't have been there.


On another note, from Ron Hendry's report,

"A close inspection of the photos also shows that the killer wiped blood from several areas near where Meredith's body was found. This would account for the large amount of blood found on the large white towel lying on the floor. A green towel and the top bed sheet may have also been used to wipe up blood on the floor."

and,

"In the photo above, the areas inside and perhaps near the outline appear to have been wiped. Areas by the bed also had this appearance."

Is he actually saying there's evidence of a cleanup?

What did you think about the rest of Hendry's report?

 

[LondonJohn]

Who's quote is that? I thought Amanda and Raffaele were out in the kitchen area when the door was broken down so neither of them could have seen in. The angle of vision just wouldn't have been there.


On another note, from Ron Hendry's report,

"A close inspection of the photos also shows that the killer wiped blood from several areas near where Meredith's body was found. This would account for the large amount of blood found on the large white towel lying on the floor. A green towel and the top bed sheet may have also been used to wipe up blood on the floor."

and,

"In the photo above, the areas inside and perhaps near the outline appear to have been wiped. Areas by the bed also had this appearance."

Is he actually saying there's evidence of a cleanup?

The quote is from one of the Italians present when the door was broken down.

Hendry is suggesting that the killer wiped blood shortly after the commission of the crime, or even during the crime (perhaps during the sexual assault phase...?). He's not claiming that the killer or killers revisited the scene in a conscious attempt to clean the room - it was most likely done either in order to create space for the killer (Guede) to move around the room, or in order to remove conspicuous shoe prints* made in Meredith's blood.

* Before anyone questions why Guede would have wiped up shoe prints in Meredith's room, yet "left" his prints in the hallway, I'd point out that the hallway shoe prints were incredibly faint (so faint, in fact, that the "crack" forensics team trod all over them for quite some time before someone noticed they were there). I'd actually suggest that the reason for the faint nature of these prints is that Guede stepped into some of the area that he'd made a crude attempt to mop up - meaning that he didn't step into a liquid pool of blood but rather one of the smears. He then tracked this very faint amount of blood out into the hallway.

 

[Alt+F4]

Joining an international movement opposed to those sorts of prosecutorial abuses which seems to have support from within Italy's government.

I guess by "international movement" you mean posting anynomously on various Internet forums.

If you want to help Knox's defense then give her family money - a lot of it. I'm sure they need it.

Short of that or you having new evidence nothing you pontificate behind the comfort of your keyboard has any effect whatsoever on this case. Be as opposed and as indignant as you want to, you can't stop the prosecution or change anything involving this case.

 

[Alt+F4]

From what I understood from a previous Italian poster is that the head cuffing is almost a cultural thing primarily between Mom's and their kids. Evidently this carries over to some other perceived misbehaviors by others who are not children in some cases.

I recently asked my Italian-American wife about this, who was raised by Italian parents. She says she got it all the time growing up, kind of like, "hey stupid, do your homework or eat your dinner", but not at all considered abusive. The girls got it just as much as the boys did.

I think it is a cultural misunderstanding in the same way that Amanda's text to Patrick saying, "see you later" doesn't mean I'll see you almost immediately. For Americans that could be the next day, next week or...whenever.

 

[RoseMontague]

Not everyone is technical-savvy; it's not necessarily a deficit of intelligence but of education. Snide remarks should have no place in this discussion, nor in discussions elsewhere. This interboard feud is getting really tiresome.

I couldn't help but notice that you had something nice to say elsewhere about a poster on the innocent side here. Things like that get me to look at your posts more carefully. For this reason I am going to take your criticism of our end of things as constructive. I think there is certainly room for improvement in the way posters treat each other on this thread, including on the side of innocence. I have to confess that sometimes I have not been as civil as I should have in responding to certain posts and certain posters. I will try to do better in that regard.

 

[RoseMontague]

I recently asked my Italian-American wife about this, who was raised by Italian parents. She says she got it all the time growing up, kind of like, "hey stupid, do your homework or eat your dinner", but not at all considered abusive. The girls got it just as much as the boys did.

I think it is a cultural misunderstanding in the same way that Amanda's text to Patrick saying, "see you later" doesn't mean I'll see you almost immediately. For Americans that could be the next day, next week or...whenever.

I agree. Both cultural differences and language problems led to a lot of misunderstandings and mistakes in this case. Yet the cops deny it still and charges are still going against Amanda and her parents.

 

[el buscador]

I guess by "international movement" you mean posting anynomously on various Internet forums.

If you want to help Knox's defense then give her family money - a lot of it. I'm sure they need it.

Short of that or you having new evidence nothing you pontificate behind the comfort of your keyboard has any effect whatsoever on this case. Be as opposed and as indignant as you want to, you can't stop the prosecution or change anything involving this case.

But CDHost is helping get information out on the internet. And, in case you haven't noticed, his efforts along with others, has attracted many experts who are working on doing something about this miscarriage of justice.

 

[LondonJohn]

I agree. Both cultural differences and language problems led to a lot of misunderstandings and mistakes in this case. Yet the cops deny it still and charges are still going against Amanda and her parents.

I had "French for business" lessons at uni from a fascinating guy who learned French by osmosis after deciding to live in France for a year with literally no prior knowledge of French. In addition to picking up the language very quickly and intuitively (he is/was phenomenally intelligent), he was also called in to mediate on the Concorde aircraft programme in the early 1960s.

Concorde was an Anglo-French alliance, but by all accounts it had nearly come to a complete standstill in 1962/63, owing mainly to massive cultural misunderstandings between the English and French working groups. There were frequent storm-outs from meetings, and extreme complaints from each side about the other that went up to senior governmental levels in both countries. My ex-professor (and a counterpart from the French side) were able to go in, observe what was happening, and determine the causes and solutions.

This was one of the first times that "soft" factors such as the effects of language and cultural differences had been properly addressed in any area of commerce or politics - my professor later addressed many major bodies, including the UK Foreign office, on the often-overlooked importance of embedded cultural practices and language nuances. He subsequently learned Mandarin Chinese using the same immersion method, and assisted many British companies doing business in China over the 1990s and 2000s.

I've always remembered this facet of his incredible expertise, and have actively sought to apply his principles when doing business abroad - especially in the Far East, but also across continental Europe, and even in the US (where we're "divided by a common language", and where people often forget that there are significant cultural differences between the UK and US).

(BTW, unless anyone thinks I went to uni shortly after WW2(!), the guy was in his 70s when he taught me - he'd formally retired as a full-time professor, but he still taught a few modules such as French for Business because he was still unsurpassed in his ability and experience.)

 

[Mrs.Columbo]

The room was entered after 13:00. It was November, not a particularly sunny day. I guess in 2 - 3 hours the need for some additional light was substantial. The lamp could have been brought in at some moment then.
I wonder what is the earliest photo showing it on the floor?

But I remember reading the transcript of Amandas court-testimony about the light in her room when she was in the house in the morning (the shower - the blow-drying of the hair...) she had no light in her room and testified it was not dark at all because of the natural light from the balcony.
And this was hours earlier and outside more dark than after 13:00. As far as I know the window of Amandas room is also smaller than the others.

 

[RoseMontague]

I guess by "international movement" you mean posting anynomously on various Internet forums.

If you want to help Knox's defense then give her family money - a lot of it. I'm sure they need it.

Short of that or you having new evidence nothing you pontificate behind the comfort of your keyboard has any effect whatsoever on this case. Be as opposed and as indignant as you want to, you can't stop the prosecution or change anything involving this case.

People involved in this case, including Mignini by his own admission follow news reports and blogs on the internet. In addition those that report the news follow such things to different degrees. I saw the internet stories and discussion including several blogs have a distinct impact on the Duke Lacrosse case. Our little discussion may not mean much but such things can make a difference even if it is not seen or noticed to a degree it was in the Duke Lacrosse case.

 

[Alt+F4]

CDHost is helping get information out on the internet. And, in case you haven't noticed, his efforts along with others, has attracted many experts who are working on doing something about this miscarriage of justice.

What English-speaking experts are doing something about this "miscarriage of justice" other than posting on the Internet about it?

Could you name some experts who are actively involved with the defense during this appeals process, helping them in areas they may need help with?

 

[Alt+F4]

People involved in this case, including Mignini by his own admission follow news reports and blogs on the internet. In addition those that report the news follow such things to different degrees. I saw the internet stories and discussion including several blogs have a distinct impact on the Duke Lacrosse case. Our little discussion may not mean much but such things can make a difference even if it is not seen or noticed to a degree it was in the Duke Lacrosse case.

Does Mignini speak or read English?

 

[LondonJohn]

But I remember reading the transcript of Amandas court-testimony about the light in her room when she was in the house in the morning (the shower - the blow-drying of the hair...) she had no light in her room and testified it was not dark at all because of the natural light from the balcony.
And this was hours earlier and outside more dark than after 13:00. As far as I know the window of Amandas room is also smaller than the others.

If it was a day with few clouds, the sun would have come through the balcony doors between around 10am to midday (the balcony windows have a south-easterly aspect). However, by 1pm, the sun would have passed beyond due south, not only making its angle oblique to the balcony windows' aspect, but also probably hiding it behind either the old part of the cottage or the apartments beyond the car park (the Sun would have been quite low in the sky in November - probably with a maximum elevation of around 55-60 degrees at middday).

So it's far from unlikely that when Knox says she was taking her shower (10-11am), the Sun was shining directly through the balcony windows, but that by the time Meredith's door was kicked open at around 1.15pm, the Sun was no longer providing any kind of direct illumination through these windows.

 

[LondonJohn]

Does Mignini speak or read English?

He knew enough English to instigate legal proceedings against the West Seattle Herald.

I wonder how those proceedings are going, incidentally....

 

[katy_did]

Does Mignini speak or read English?

Didn't he sue an English-speaking paper for saying he was mentally unbalanced (or something similar)? He was obviously aware of the Daily Mail article he introduced in Court, too.

I think the whole internet phenomenon with regard to cases like this one and the Duke Lacrosse case is interesting. Miscarriages of justice often are publicized and eventually overturned through public pressure, so it makes sense to me that the internet has a part to play in drawing attention to more recent wrongful convictions.

 

[LondonJohn]

What English-speaking experts are doing something about this "miscarriage of justice" other than posting on the Internet about it?

Could you name some experts who are actively involved with the defense during this appeals process, helping them in areas they may need help with?

Well, it appears that members of the Idaho Innocence Project are actively helping the defence teams (notwithstanding "investigations" by internet hounds ). And I guess I'd also call Ted Simon an expert.....

 

[Alt+F4]

Well, it appears that members of the Idaho Innocence Project are actively helping the defence teams (notwithstanding "investigations" by internet hounds ). And I guess I'd also call Ted Simon an expert.....

How are they actively helping the defense? Are they flying experts to Italy to help the defense in the appeal? Are they in contact/discussion with the Italian legal establishment regarding a miscarriage of justice? Are they raising money for the defense? What exactly are they doing other then potificating innocence on the Internet?

 

[Alt+F4]

Didn't he sue an English-speaking paper for saying he was mentally unbalanced (or something similar)?

I don't know. Do you have any more details on this?

Miscarriages of justice often are publicized and eventually overturned through public pressure.

I think it's quite scary if public pressure can overturn a jury decided case. Criminal cases should be decided by juries, not by mobs.