Chaos Magic

[Zanders]

Ask for evidence.


Any evidence at all would be a start.

What do you think would be good evidence?

Whenever people try to present proof it is usually shrugged off as a coincidence, fabrication or lie. There seems to be no way to win.

 

[tsig]

I think you should re-read as you missed what my actual position is. I'm saying that asking for evidence with regard to the details given is a vain pursuit because the only evidence that can be given on a web forum is anecdotal. You're awfully hasty in your attempts to rebut -- I suggest you slow down a bit.

So you're saying that we accept your details given anecdotes as true and don't ask for any more details or point out any consistencies?

 

[tsig]

I'm not talking about psychics, I'm talking about interaction with non-human or discriminate entities.

VfF was either from Arcturus or was Arcturus, non-human enough?


http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/tags.php?tag=VfF


Warning! Warning, Will Robison! That way lies madness.

_{or a great time suck}

 

[AkuManiMani]

But you said that it just said that she had talked to it before and that you chose her well. That doesn't seem like anything too impressive. Especially if you are remembering it more accurate than it was.

The voice informed me that my friend had had similar contacts. I asked my friend some time afterward if she had any odd experiences recently and she said she hand. She went on to provide details of being contacted by a male and female voice on separate occasions and the contacts, as she described them, had the same "symptoms" as the one I experienced [e.g. "spark"-like tingling sensations at the crown of the head and high pitched ringing]. The voice also mentioned another individual I'd had a a very -- erm --unusual run in with a few years before. But thats another story.

 

[Zanders]

The voice informed me that my friend had had similar contacts. I asked my friend some time afterward if she had any odd experiences recently and she said she hand. She went on to provide details of being contacted by a male and female voice on separate occasions and the contacts, as she described them, had the same "symptoms" as the one I experienced [e.g. "spark"-like tingling sensations at the crown of the head and high pitched ringing]. The voice also mentioned another individual I'd had a a very -- erm --unusual run in with a few years before. But thats another story.

You already said that. I said that it could possibly have been confirmation bias that you found her experiences so close and a coincidence that the voice said she had them.

Does the mention of the "very unusual individual" you had a run in with make it even more undeniable? If so it would help if you could paraphrase or share the story.

 

[AkuManiMani]

So you're saying that we accept your details given anecdotes as true and don't ask for any more details or point out any consistencies?

I'm saying you've no way of knowing whether my anecdotes are true so you might as well just consider them hypothetically. I've given a much details with regard to this specific account as I could without divulging the personal info regarding me and my friend so you're going to have to make due with it. You are quite free to point out any discrepancies if you like, but you're not really going to find any, as there are none </shrug>

 

[Zanders]

VfF was either from Arcturus or was Arcturus, non-human enough?


http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/tags.php?tag=VfF


Warning! Warning, Will Robison! That way lies madness.

_{or a great time suck}

If psychic powers don't exist, but the discriminate beings do, how could there ever be good enough evidence for some of the extremely skeptical?

What if there are honestly rules and methods that are the only way to make contact with them? How will you ever know unless you try?

 

[PixyMisa]

What do you think would be good evidence?

Whenever people try to present proof it is usually shrugged off as a coincidence, fabrication or lie. There seems to be no way to win.

That's because what they are presenting are unconfirmable stories.

So we need something other than a story, or a story that can be independently verified - by something other than a story.

As several of us have pointed out, despite an enormous number of stories like AkuManiMani's, no verifiable evidence of anything out of the ordinary has ever been produced.

 

[AkuManiMani]

You already said that. I said that it could possibly have been confirmation bias that you found her experiences so close and a coincidence that the voice said she had them.

Does the mention of the "very unusual individual" you had a run in with make it even more undeniable? If so it would help if you could paraphrase or share the story.

Well, that was a completely separate situation, but the circumstances of it were just as bizarre as this one. Basically, being my usually tactless self, I'd pissed off the particular individual in question by making -- erm -- unflattering observations about her. She responded by threatening that me and my family would ended up "in a very dark place".

A about a week or so after the threat I experienced a bizarre sleep paralysis in which I was being attacked my a malevolent entity trying to pull me from my body into some dark twisting dreamscape. While all this was happening I was cognizant of my surroundings and the girl who'd threatened me had actually called my house while this was going on. She was basically trying to convince them that I was "possessed demonic forces" and was playing the hero. From what I overheard of the conversation she was telling them details of what I was experiencing in the "dream". Theres a lot more that happened during, and leading up to, that particular night but, suffice it to say, its a really long story and I don't feel like getting into all of that right now -_-

 

[Nonpareil]

This kinda ties in with my thoughts on the relation between consciousness and the brain and this is probably a topic fit for a different thread. The short answer is that the brain [and, by extension, the other organ systems] is shaped by the conscious will of the subject as much as, if not more than, it shapes the consciousness of said subject.

And your evidence for this is...?

In any case, I'm going with the hypothesis that "hallucinations" experienced by schizophrenic patients, spontaneous "contacts" with individuals with no history of psychiatric conditions, and the entities reported by subjects under the effects of certain hallucinogenic compounds [like DMT] are actually intelligences distinct from the consciousness [possibly even the brains] of the subjects who interact with them.

And you choose to "go with the hypothesis"... why, exactly?

How would one go about testing such a hypothesis? Not sure.

So you don't actually have any evidence for this hypothesis, and you're simply choosing to believe it for no reason?

I'm saying you've no way of knowing whether my anecdotes are true so you might as well just consider them hypothetically.

So you don't actually want an analysis of your stories? You just want us to look at them and say "Ooh, well, if that's true, then that'd be proof of the paranormal"?

What's the point?

 

[PixyMisa]

If psychic powers don't exist, but the discriminate beings do, how could there ever be good enough evidence for some of the extremely skeptical?

Any evidence at all would be a start.

What if there are honestly rules and methods that are the only way to make contact with them? How will you ever know unless you try?

Why should we think they exist at all when there is no evidence?

 

[Zanders]

Well, that was a completely separate situation, but the circumstances of it were just as bizarre as this one. Basically, being my usually tactless self, I'd pissed off the particular individual in question by making -- erm -- unflattering observations about her. She responded by threatening that me and my family would ended up "in a very dark place".

A about a week or so after the threat I experienced a bizarre sleep paralysis in which I was being attacked my a malevolent entity trying to pull me from my body into some dark twisting dreamscape. While all this was happening I was cognizant of my surroundings and the girl who'd threatened me had actually called my house while this was going on. She was basically trying to convince them that I was "possessed demonic forces" and was playing the hero. From what I overheard of the conversation she was telling them details of what I was experiencing in the "dream". Theres a lot more that happened during, and leading up to, that particular night but, suffice it to say, its a really long story and I don't feel like getting into all of that right now -_-

Uh, wow. That's certainly... odd. What exactly was this lady?

 

[PixyMisa]

So you don't actually have any evidence for this hypothesis, and you're simply choosing to believe it for no reason?

If there's no test for it, it's not even properly a hypothesis.

So you don't actually want an analysis of your stories? You just want us to look at them and say "Ooh, well, if that's true, then that'd be proof of the paranormal"?

Apparently.

There is no shortage of forums where he would receive just that response. This is not one of them.

 

[Zanders]

Any evidence at all would be a start.


Why should we think they exist at all when there is no evidence?

Well, if millions of people have strikingly similar encounters with them, that should mean a little something. And when people that don't beleive in anything "paranormal" have experiences, that should make it even more worth researching. Most of this information is just shrugged off, though.

 

[PixyMisa]

Uh, wow. That's certainly... odd. What exactly was this lady?

Meh. Sounds like sleep paralysis and confabulation.

 

[AkuManiMani]

Uh, wow. That's certainly... odd. What exactly was this lady?

An old highschool "friend" of mine... -_-

 

[AkuManiMani]

Meh. Sounds like sleep paralysis and confabulation.

Yes, PixyMisa. Braindidit!

 

[Zanders]

An old highschool "friend" of mine... -_-

But how in the world would she be able to do something like that? If it was that easy to do freaky **** like that I would think that many more skeptics and influential people would be thrown in to this sort of chaos.

Also, stories like that sound like they would be easily verifiable if we could see that the people called and gave details about a currently occurring episode of paralysis and being pulled in to some vortex when nobody outside of the house should have known...

 

[PixyMisa]

Well, if millions of people have strikingly similar encounters with them, that should mean a little something.

You mean, report strikingly similar experiences.

First of all, they don't.

Look at reports of UFOs and alien abductions over the course of the 20th century. The descriptions of the UFOs and aliens change over time to match representations in popular culture.

And when people that don't beleive in anything "paranormal" have experiences, that should make it even more worth researching.

As soon as they present evidence, sure.

Most of this information is just shrugged off, though.

No, it's not "shrugged off". It's just that it's unsupported stories. Of interest to psychologists and sociologists, but not evidence of anything other than a state of mind.

 

[PixyMisa]

But how in the world would she be able to do something like that? If it was that easy to do freaky **** like that I would think that many more skeptics and influential people would be thrown in to this sort of chaos.

I've had sleep paralysis. It's quite common.