Merged Rep. Giffords Shot In Tucson

deepatrax said:
Of course...the "fear your government" noise was perfectly OK back when Liberals were claiming that fascist dictator George W Bush was trying to take away our rights and spy on us all...right?

:rolleyes:
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Let's compare some of the complaints against Bush and Obama that might cause one to actually fear the government for a good reason:

Bush - opened a prison to incarcerate people indefinitely without trial, redefined POW to "enemy combatant", a term he defined to be what he wanted it to be.
- approved of torture at that prison, including redefining torture and our obligations under the Geneva Conventions
- expanded warrantless phone tapping to include the data mining of all phone calls going in and out of the US and when challenged, ignored FISA laws. Installed electronic listening rooms in major telecom hubs to intercept the data they chose to warrantlessly mine.
- replaced ~150 career lawyers in the Justice Department with new graduate religious ideologues from Pat Robertson's unaccredited (at the time) Regent University Law School and fired 8 Republican appointed federal prosecutors who refused to prosecute politically motivated cases. Bush also replaced Ashcroft with the yes-man Gonzales as head of that department after Ashcroft balked at going along with the unethical activities Bush wanted.

Does any of that partial list suggest one might have legitimate reasons to fear your government?


Obama- hasn't ended the data mining or closed Gitmo. Hopefully he has stopped torturing people.
- Along the lines of reasons to fear government? Sorry, I can't think of any more.

He signed into law health care legislation passed by the Legislature. THAT's how our government is supposed to work. You may or may not like the political decisions. But how does that possibly compare on the 'you-should-be-concerned-about-your-government' meter to torturing and imprisoning people indefinitely without trial and spying on every single citizen who talks to someone out of the country by phone?
 
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thaiboxerken said:
I find it interesting that liberals are a bunch of "pansy, wimpy, peace-loving hippies."

Until something like this happens, and then liberals are a bunch of crazy, violent nutcases that like to shoot people.....:confused:
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nobody ever said the Left was non-violent.

After all...look at the ELF and the violent protests at Berkeley and the G20
 
Liberal this, liberal that... Turning a word like "liberal", which has the definition of "generous" and "broad minded", into some kind of vicious insult that right wingers are obsessed with labeling everyone with, is exactly the kind of rhetoric that motivates such wackos...
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Let's compare some of the complaints against Bush and Obama that might cause one to actually fear the government for a good reason:

Bush - opened a prison to incarcerate people indefinitely without trial, redefined POW to "enemy combatant", a term he defined to be what he wanted it to be.
- approved of torture at that prison, including redefining torture and our obligations under the Geneva Conventions
- expanded warrantless phone tapping to include the data mining of all phone calls going in and out of the US and when challenged, ignored FISA laws. Installed electronic listening rooms in major telecom hubs to intercept the data they chose to warrantlessly mine.
- replaced ~150 career lawyers in the Justice Department with new graduate religious ideologues from Pat Robertson's unaccredited (at the time) Regent University Law School and fired 8 Republican appointed federal prosecutors who refused to prosecute politically motivated cases. Bush also replaced Ashcroft with the yes-man Gonzales as head of that department after Ashcroft balked at going along with the unethical activities Bush wanted.

Does any of that partial list suggest one might have legitimate reasons to fear your government?


Obama- hasn't ended the data mining or closed Gitmo. Hopefully he has stopped torturing people.
- Along the lines of reasons to fear government? Sorry, I can't think of any more.

He signed into law health care legislation passed by the Legislature. THAT's how our government is supposed to work. You may or may not like the political decisions. But how does that possibly compare on the 'you should be concerned' meter to torturing and imprisoning people indefinitely without trial and spying on every single citizen who talks to someone out of the country by phone?
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It's amusing...that you actually think your BIASED opinions aren't opinions at all...but instead you think you are subjectively looking at the facts.

Obama:
- continues the policy of indefinite detentions
- directed the U.S. military to kill a U.S. citizen overseas
- Hasn't closed Gitmo
- Continues renditions which INCLUDES the torturing of prisoners...it just happens in secret locations overseas.

basically everything Bush did, which I do agree with btw, and everything the Left was against at the time.
 
deepatrax said:
It's amusing...that you actually think your BIASED opinions aren't opinions at all...but instead you think you are subjectively looking at the facts.

Obama:
- continues the policy of indefinite detentions
- directed the U.S. military to kill a U.S. citizen overseas
- Hasn't closed Gitmo
- Continues renditions which INCLUDES the torturing of prisoners...it just happens in secret locations overseas.

basically everything Bush did, which I do agree with btw, and everything the Left was against at the time.
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Edited by jhunter1163: 
Edited for civility.
 
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applecorped said:
Focus. Would you in any way attempt to curb, via legal measures, rhetoric? If yes, how?
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By shunning such persons and letting the world know what sort of trash they are. By making everybody understand that it is a transgression on decency to do as they do.

I have been very clear on this and you are being very dishonest by continuing to question me in this fashion.
 
MattusMaximus said:
You don't yet have the evidence that Loughner's actions were caused by "incessant vitriol".
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We'll likely never have more 'evidence' than circumstantial. But experts, based on what we know about the delusional systems of schizophrenia, can give an opinion of the estimated likelihood that such vitriol did contribute. Chris Matthews had such an expert on tonight that did indeed have the opinion it almost certainly contributed.

MattusMaximus said:
Again, evidence?
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It's been posted already. The government-is-violating-the-Constitution theme was in his most recent writings from Dec 15 and it's an awfully unlikely coincidence that same charge was on the forefront of the last election culminating in the Repubs having the Constitution read on the first day in session.

MattusMaximus said:
I'm sorry, but I set the bar just a bit higher than you, methinks.
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You can refrain from drawing conclusions based on anything less than absolute proof if you choose. I don't think that is warranted here.

MattusMaximus said:
ETA: Once again, not everyone who shoots a politician does so with political motives - remember John Hinckley, Jr.
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No one said every mentally ill person had the same influence on their delusions. But notice how you have no trouble saying Jodie Foster's, Taxi influenced Hinckley, but delusional rantings about the Constitution 2 weeks before the shooting when the incoming Congress just made a big show of saying the government isn't following the Constitution and you are reluctant to notice the coincidence.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
The main erroneous conclusions being leaped to here are the straw men.

It's misunderstood what the nature of the relationship between the right wing vitriol and the shooter is.
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But there hasn't been a relationship established between the vitriol and the shooter. Therefore there's nothing to "misunderstand".

The right wing has been stoking fear in fringe groups because that gets votes. The emergence of the Tea Party, IMO, is a direct result of this campaign rhetoric tactic. During Bush's campaign and administration ...
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I might be as disgusted as you seem to be w/certain Right Wing tactics. Am disgusted w/some Left Wing political tactics too. But that's a separate discussion. Disorganized thinking and delusions have been shown to lead people to think and act homicidally. Can you offer reasonable evidence to show that "Republican fear tactics" is a likely culprit w/in the context of his disorganized, paranoid thinking? You tried citing his use of "constitutional" rhetoric and I explained how that argument is weak.

ETA: responded to your second post too. It's probably toward the end of the next page. PS I see what you mean now about being busy on this thread!
 
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applecorped said:
We should amend the 1st amendment. Honestly.
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Laws are not the answer to every problem.

I'd be satisfied if the Democratic Party leadership just wised up to the Karl Rove Playbook and used counter tactics that diminished the effectiveness of the fear mongering. If they did so, it would go away on its own.

Tactic #12: Use Emotional Appeals

The right wing ideological media have reinforced this climate of fear. Fox News keeps people in a perennial state of alarm about issues such as immigration, terrorism, and sexual difference. Their news reports routinely sensationalize and exaggerate the threats. During the Anthrax scare (which accounted for only five deaths), Fox News ran a series entitled “ Are You Prepared?” in which the reporter intoned, “ Don’ t drink or eat anything” (for more discussion on ideological media, see Tactic #8).
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The paper was written a couple years ago so doesn't use the example that was adopted to compete with Obama. That is, the theme of fear mongering over claiming Obama is scary and the government is to be feared.
 
Well, evidence is mounting that he is not insane, in accordance with legal definition.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/11/arizona.shooting/

CNN reports
Lawyers: Insanity Defense Won’t Work

The alleged shooter in Saturday’s deadly Tucson massacre may have difficulty making the case for a successful insanity plea, experts said Tuesday. ... With the “amount of planning that went into this assassination,” Callan believes “it’s highly unlikely he will meet the legal insanity defense threshold.”

“It’s very hard to prove insanity at trial,” Callan said. “You really have to prove that your mental illness is so severe that you don’t even understand that you’re committing a criminal act. And It’s almost impossible to prove that.” ... Gardere emphasized that “premeditation will work against him in this one as far as getting an insanity plea.”

This is due to the envelope found in his safe with Giffords name on it, "planned it", and "my assassination", along with his signature.
 
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ProbeX said:
But there hasn't been a relationship established between the vitriol and the shooter. Therefore there's nothing to "misunderstand".

I might be as disgusted as you seem to be w/certain Right Wing tactics. Am disgusted w/some Left Wing political tactics too. But that's a separate discussion. Disorganized thinking and delusions have been shown to lead people to think and act homicidally. Can you offer reasonable evidence to show that "Republican fear tactics" is a likely culprit w/in the context of his disorganized, paranoid thinking? You tried citing his use of "constitutional" rhetoric and I explained how that argument is weak.
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I'm not the only one with the opinion it is no coincidence. The fact you find the argument weak is your opinion. Oh well.
 
Excuse me.

One question. Even if we did decide that he was falling all over himself listening to, and accepting any given parties rhetoric, at what point does sharing the same political affiliation lead to a share in the blame for a murder?

Isn't murder off the table as a political tool? I just do not understand how either group can sit here and respond to this Us Vs Them, well he is in your camp so its your camps responsibility blather!

This all seems very uncritical for a group of supposed critical thinkers.
 
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