Are Chinese Mothers Superior?

David Bernstein wants to know why Jewish parents are generally considered to be among the most permissive, they their kids seem to do pretty well. I'm thinking it's the non-objectionable aspects of "Chinese parents" that accounts for their children's success rather than the more obviously insane ones.
 
How the hell do you expect a survey to determine what Dr. Chua wants of her children?

My impression is that you were basing her motives as a representative of a culture. (introduced by the Japanese quote about nails and hammers).

That's the part I was saying would benefit from better supporting evidence.

Sorry for not being clear about that.
 
I don't think Ms. (Dr.?) Chua wants her children to be like Gates or Jobs; the proverb "the nail [or stake] that sticks up gets hammered down" is Japanese, not Chinese, but still relevant. I think what Chua wants is her children to grow up to be high-end engineers working for Gates or Jobs, holding down comfortable jobs with comfortable and stable salaries. Innovation is risky, disruptive, and there's far too great a chance that her 30 year-old daughter will end up sleeping with her husband in the basement because her great plan for being the Internet's largest supplier of tuna fish sandwiches didn't pan out.


.

And as in the (supposed) old Chinese curse "MAY YOU LIVE IN INTERESTING TIMES!"
 
China has a serious problem with innovation. There is a draw back to the comfort of conformity.
 
I've seen the results this produces in at least one case. It's child abuse, not parenting. Certainly not "successful parenting" by any stretch of imagination.

McHrozni
 
I've seen the results this produces in at least one case. It's child abuse, not parenting. Certainly not "successful parenting" by any stretch of imagination.

McHrozni

My roommate my first year in college was a textbook example of high pressure parenting all the way through high school. I know, we went to HS together. He kinda lost it once he was off the leash. It was frightening, really.

He wasn't Chinese.
 
Well, Ms. Chua is right -- parental involvement is one of the best predictors of success in school.

Speaking as a college professor, however,.... I'm willing to bet that Ms. Chua is going to be in for a serious shock when Sophia and Louisa crash and burn at whatever top-tier college they've been sent to. I have to deal with these overinvolved "helicopter parents" a lot, and it's rarely a pleasant experience for them, for their children, or for me. (Or for the Dean, because I have a tendency to tell them, "well, if you don't like it, talk to the Dean and see if he's willing to intervene.")

There's a blurry line between involvement and overinvolvement. I'm perfectly happy with the idea that Ms. Chua will not praise her children for bringing home a B. I'm less so with the idea that she won't "allow" her daughter to play the flute or the drums.

Wait until Sophia and Louisa meet frat boys and beer.
 
Actually, I knew a family with a son and a daughter who were treated pretty much like this. Their father literally stood over them while they were doing their homework, pointing out their errors. The daughter hated piano and had to take it for five years. When the son got lower grades in high school than my brother, he was harrassed about it unceasingly.

The son committed suicide at age 28. The daughter, who was my best friend growing up, has not spoken to any childhood friends in years. The last time I called her, she was so full of hate and anger, I couldn't deal with her any more.

It was a tragic household.
 
My impression is that you were basing her motives as a representative of a culture.

Ah. My apologies, then.

Chua is (quite obviously) at the extreme end of cultural variation -- obviously, if you notice how many Chinese (or Asian) flute players there are. They can't all be prevented from playing any instrument other than violin or piano.

But the overall cultural variation is quite real; for example, Asian American high school students in the SF Bay area have been documented to spend nearly half again as much time on homework as non-Asians; concommittantly, their high school GPAs are up to a quarter point higher. Forty percent of Asian-Americans have a college degree, compared to about 22% of "whites," and 11% of blacks.

You also shouldn't confuse entrepreneurship with "out of the box thinking," as I think you described it. Most entrepreneurs aren't especially innovative, which is good, as most entrepreneurship requires hard work rather than genius. You can run a damn good restaurant or travel agency by simply being better than your competition instead of really being different.

And, in fact, your examples show (some of) the difference between innovation and entrepreneurship; neither Bill Gates nor Steve Jobs hold college degrees; they dropped out of Harvard and Reed College, respectively, in order to pursue a much riskier business path. ("Woz" was a high school dropout as well.) Can you imagine Chua's probable reaction if her darling daughters announced that they were dropping out of college to start a company in a new and unproven field?
 
It seems to me that there's a happy middle between being an overbearing parent and being overly permissive. My parents let me do pretty much whatever I wanted as a kid and, well, I was pretty lazy. The thing is, if I'd had someone forcing me to do some of those things, I might actually have enjoyed them.

For instance, I took swimming lessons for a few years as a kid and enjoyed it, but one day I told my mom that I didn't want to sign up again for the next year, and she said, "okay, if that's what you want." I was just being lazy and later regretted not going. And now I can say it'd be cool if I had spent that time learning to be better swimmer than just watching TV.

As to the list in the OP, I would bet that some of those things contribute to a child's success and some don't. I doubt that learning to play piano and not liking it is more valuable than learning to play guitar and enjoying doing so.

Another anecdote from my own life, though: I found that when I was being lazy in school, not participating in class and not doing homework, I hated school, found myself confused in class, and was just bored. When I participated, listened, did the homework and kept up with class, I actually liked being there. For a parent to encourage that kind of participation, and even police it, may do more than make their children do well in school, it may also have the effect of making them enjoy it more. Of course, too demanding a workload, and too high expectations may have the opposite effect.

Simply stated, I think that there's value in encouraging children to have high expectations of themselves and the view that hard work is all that's necessary to achieve success. And I don't think children will often come to that on their own. But there is also value in many of the things that Dr Chua disparages: learning social skills through fun and relaxed interaction with other kids, play, having fun, experimenting to find what you like, pursuing those things about which you are passionate, and simply being able to relax.

A friend of mine and I were having a discussion a while ago, about his desire to have children. He is Korean-American and said that his parents drove him very hard. He found both value and loss in that approach: he has a strong work ethic, but he was also pushed into a field which he didn't find interesting, and says he wasted a good deal of his life unhappy. He's now running a game development company in china, and doing well, making less money that he could working for someone else back in the US, but happier for it. His view, which I found reasonable was this: encourage your children to excel at whatever they do, but let them decide what they are passionate about themselves.
 
The sheer number of Chinese means it's basically statistically inevitable that they'll produce lots of "talented" kids. I'd like to see that they produce a greater percentage of these child prodigies than anyone else.

And I use the word "talent" here pretty loosely.

(If anyone else compares one of those supposed genius piano playing kids (who only ever plays someone else's music) to classical composers who were actually writing their own work at the same age I'm going to spew)
 
I see this sort of thing as a backlash against change. It was good enough for me, so it'll be good enough for you, even if I have to force you into it...

In a related note, I happened across something in a similar vein yesterday. This is a top ten list, the 'top ten most evil books of all time'. I think the author tried to sneak something through. Sandwiched between such works as the 'Malleus Malificarum' and 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion' is 'Democracy and Education' by John Dewey, with the explanation that it was this work of evil that convinced people that education wasn't about memorizing facts but about learning how to thing, as facts can change. The author of this piece believes that this view is very damaging to 'character'.

http://www.goodreads.com/story/show/47532-10-evil-books-of-all-time

I'd argue that a good education SHOULD prepare people to challenge facts, and that knowing facts is not one tenth as important as knowing how to find facts when neccesary.
 
They'll get there.

First they must catch up through imitation. Once they've done that, I expect them to start innovating.

They ARE innovating. They're the world leaders in innovation in industrial espionage. No one can steal your data quicker.
 
I knew a Chinese nun once.

I wonder if she ever became a Chinese Mother Superior....?
 

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