Israel tears down 80 year old hotel to make way for Jews ONLY

[Mycroft]

I'm with Thunder on this one. What good does it do a society to legalize discrimination?

I think it's more complicated than that.

In the United States of America we have at least one Christian-only community:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ave_Maria,_Florida

And at least one Muslim-only community:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamberg,_New_York


I don't personally want to live in either of these places, but I don't begrudge the people that do want to their right to make their own choices.

In the Middle East the custom has always been for religious communities to cluster in their own towns. This isn't something Israel created, it's something it inherited. If many ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities want to perpetuate it, that gives them something in common with many of the Arab communities. If I personally had to live in Israel, I'd choose one of the mixed communities, and there are many of them, but I wouldn't begrudge the Muslims or Jews who made different choices.

 

[PhantomWolf]

oh, that's just lovely.

look Timmy, Arabs can discriminate too!!! isn't that great? now its allllll okee dokee.

Nice to see that you're still taking things out of context.

 

[Thunder]

And at least one Muslim-only community:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamberg,_New_York

err....this is in the middle of nowhere.

East Jerusalem is part of a major metropolitan area.

not exactly a fair comparison.

 

[PhantomWolf]

If I personally had to live in Israel, I'd choose one of the mixed communities, and there are many of them, but I wouldn't begrudge the Muslims or Jews who made different choices.

See, but Thunder would, because he doesn't agree with it and screw culture because his is the only right culture, so they should just do what he says is right and not have the choice to make up their own minds on how they want to live.

 

[Thunder]

See, but Thunder would, because he doesn't agree with it and screw culture because his is the only right culture,

there it is again!!!

what does prejudice and racism have to do with culture?

please name the cultures that have racism and bigotry as part of their core beliefs.

 

[PhantomWolf]

there it is again!!!

what does prejudice and racism have to do with culture?

please name the cultures that have racism and bigotry as part of their core beliefs.

I'm not saying that they have those as core beliefs, but rather they have things in them that you interept as racism and bigotry.

It's not racism and bigotry to exclude univited non-Maori from Marae, but apparently by your standards it is.

It's not racism and bigotry to live in a small community of people the same race and beliefs as youself, but apparently you think that it is.

I'd note that even in the States there are some areas I suspect you would be precluded from buying property by the current owner's choice because of your race and religion. The Armish communities have already been mentioned. Mycrofy added a Musliem and a Christian community you wouldn't likely be able to buy a house in, and I doubt that you'd manage to get one in any of the Chinatowns around the US either. Does that make those people all racist and bigoted?

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

And at least one Muslim-only community:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamberg,_New_York

My irony meter explodeth.... a muslim only community with a name that ends in "-berg".

 

[bigjelmapro]

I'm at a loss what ultra-orthodox Jews have to do with this.

Side argument pertaining to their isolationist living practices.

This property was purchased by Ateret Cohanim and Moskowitz, so the argument about apparent discrimination and the orthodox living practices is relevant.

The main gripe here was not so much about demolishing the hotel, but that (a) the land was sold to a private investor, and that (b) that investor is going to let the apartments he builds to (Israeli) Jews. And apparently some people who liked the monumental value of the hotel managed to save its facade from demolishment.

Gripe in the media is mostly about getting media attention for an old hotel of a prominent anti-semite and Nazi sympathizer. The land was privately owned prior to the establishment of Israel and occupation of Jordan, as proven in a court of law.

Other than that, the PA is whinging about "Judaization" of Arab communities, a laughable and obvious hypocrisy to the apparent plans to make this housing complex a Jewish religious community.

Also another case of sheer hypocrisy is the banter behind saving a facade of a 1930's hotel compared to the destruction of archeological sites say at the Temple mount, another site of political interest to the Islamic uhmmah.

 

[bigjelmapro]

My irony meter explodeth.... a muslim only community with a name that ends in "-berg".

Maybe the surname was someone who lived next to a mountain as the name implies.

 

[Thunder]

It's not racism and bigotry to live in a small community of people the same race and beliefs as youself, but apparently you think that it is.

its not racism to insist on having a community where everyone is white?

what do you call it...white pride?

 

[Thunder]

Other than that, the PA is whinging about "Judaization" of Arab communities, a laughable and obvious hypocrisy to the apparent plans to make this housing complex a Jewish religious community.

demolishing buildings in EJ in order to build Jewish-only communities, is indeed racist and undemocratic.

funny, how you can't see that. or refuse to see that.

..or maybe you do see that and don't find this to be a problem.

Bigjel, do you have a problem with Jew-only communities or apartment buildings in EJ and Israel in general?

 

[bigjelmapro]

demolishing buildings in EJ in order to build Jewish-only communities, is indeed racist and undemocratic.

funny, how you can't see that. or refuse to see that.

..or maybe you do see that and don't find this to be a problem.

Bigjel, do you have a problem with Jew-only communities or apartment buildings in EJ and Israel in general?

Building a housing complex by the choice of the person/organization that owns that land for an isolationist orthodox religious community is just that. An isolationist community, nothing different from various examples of isolationist communities that cater to a specific group/religion/etc. as seen in developed, developing and 3rd world countries.

I don't see it your way because your position is that of sheer hypocrisy.

Personally, if a person wants their own community, ie gated or whatnot, based on their personal practices/beliefs, then that's their choice. To me, its a freedom.

 

[ddt]

Side argument pertaining to their isolationist living practices.

This property was purchased by Ateret Cohanim and Moskowitz, so the argument about apparent discrimination and the orthodox living practices is relevant.

Those isolationist living practices only pertain to the ultra orthodox, don't they? I haven't seen evidence Moskowitz is ultra-orthodox, nor that Ateret Cohanim is involved.

Gripe in the media is mostly about getting media attention for an old hotel of a prominent anti-semite and Nazi sympathizer. The land was privately owned prior to the establishment of Israel and occupation of Jordan, as proven in a court of law.

Okay, I misread the article linked in the OP. Wiki says ownership went from the Mufti to his secretary, George Antonius, and then stops mentioning owners until Moskowitz purchased it in 1985.

Other than that, the PA is whinging about "Judaization" of Arab communities, a laughable and obvious hypocrisy to the apparent plans to make this housing complex a Jewish religious community.

Settling Jews - whether as "religious community" or not - fits the bill of Judaization, doesn't it? And do you have evidence for the "religious community" aspect?

 

[Thunder]

Building a housing complex by the choice of the person/organization that owns that land for an isolationist orthodox religious community is just that. .

you have no evidence, ZERO, that Moskowitz's complexes are for the ultra-Orthodox, or that this specific housing complex will be for ultra-Orthodox. please go and find some.

Personally, if a person wants their own community, ie gated or whatnot, based on their personal practices/beliefs, then that's their choice.

ah, so if some wealthy German decides to build a massive apartment complex in Berlin, specifically says "this place shall be for true Germans only, not Jews"....you are ok with that?

would you REALLY be ok with that, Bigjel?

To me, its a freedom.

how about the freedom to have a roof over your head?

 

[WildCat]

err....this is in the middle of nowhere.

East Jerusalem is part of a major metropolitan area.

not exactly a fair comparison.

Why does that matter? What makes it not a fair comparison?

 

[Thunder]

Why does that matter? What makes it not a fair comparison?

Do you believe that people should have the right to discriminate based on race/ethnicity/religion in large housing complexes and large apartment buildings?

 

[WildCat]

I'd note that even in the States there are some areas I suspect you would be precluded from buying property by the current owner's choice because of your race and religion. The Armish communities have already been mentioned. Mycrofy added a Musliem and a Christian community you wouldn't likely be able to buy a house in, and I doubt that you'd manage to get one in any of the Chinatowns around the US either. Does that make those people all racist and bigoted?

You could certainly buy a property in Chinatown... if you could afford it. There was a huge influx of Chinese immigrants here when Hong Kong went back to Chinese rule, and real estate prices in Chinatown went through the roof. Large chunks of previously (nearly) all-white neighboring Bridgeport became majority Chinese.

There's no law forcing people to live together, but many people do self-segregate. My neighborhood is as segregated and mixed as could possibly be short of space aliens, but even here I can show you some apartment buildings that are nearly all Croatian, or all Nigerian, or all Bosnian, or all Mexican, or all Korean. Often these are people who are related, or were neighbors or acquainances in the old country, and stayed together here also. My upstairs tenants moved here from the nearly all-Bosnian building across the street, they wanted a bigger apartment for their 2 children but also wanted to stay near their friends and relatives and mosque.

But these things happen naturally, you couldn't build an apartment building and declare it off-limits to all renters except Puerto Ricans.

 

[Thunder]

All I'm saying is the laws here level the playing

and without them, places like Chicago, New York, Boston, Philadelphia would look very different than they do today.

I believe that forcing people to be together, by outlawing discrimination in housing, education, employment, and commerce..we have exposed people to their fears and shown them that people from different races and ethnicities ain't the boogeyman.

Israel, as it claims to be a western-style democracy, is very wrong to allow racial, ethnic, and religious discrimination in housing.

Do you agree, Wildcat?

 

[tyr_13]

Thunder, you live in New York, and yet you think Amish live 'out in the middle of nowhere'?

 

[WildCat]

Do you believe that people should have the right to discriminate based on race/ethnicity/religion in large housing complexes and large apartment buildings?

No, except for the property of religious groups as is already excepted in US law.

But Israel is not the US, just as France is not the US, and Switzerland is not the US.

Why should I get any more worked up over this than the French burkha ban or the Swiss minaret ban?