Health care - administrative incompetence

[jimbob]

I pay already.

Then why are you complaining?

Because Silly Green Monkey pays already - and doesn't get to use the taxpayer-funded healthcare?

I pay about the same proportion in taxes towards healthcare, and I can access this.

I do wonder if that is part of the problem with the US system: the people who pay for the system tend to be prevented from using it - unless they are in VA etc.

 

[TFian]

Indigent care is used by people who don't have insurance and don't qualify for any of the government programmes. By the time these people need that care they would already have serious problems that require tens of thousands of dollars worth of treatment.

Yes, I'm aware of what the programs are.

Don't you think that it's better to make sure that these people can access health services so they can get their problems treated before they get the point where it costs tons of money to treat?

Not if we don't have the money for it. Again, if we don't have the money for a select few, how do we have the money FOR everybody?!

Except that it isn't.

Explain how it's not.

 

[TFian]

Because Silly Green Monkey pays already - and doesn't get to use the taxpayer-funded healthcare?

I doubt it. 47% of the American public doesn't even pay any income tax, and this isn't the rich (who pay a large percentage of our income taxation). .

I do wonder if that is part of the problem with the US system: the people who pay for the system tend to be prevented from using it - unless they are in VA etc.

Not at all, you pay your insurance premiums, and co pays, you'll get the care you need. Simple as that.

And please, none of this "VA for all" nonsense.

 

[TFian]

Perhaps the USA has crossed a tipping point and cannot implement a UHC system because inequality is too entrenched in its society.

We can only hope...

 

[TFian]

I do wonder if that is part of the problem with the US system: the people who pay for the system tend to be prevented from using it - unless they are in VA etc.

What, nobody gets on Medicare?

 

[Emet]

I doubt it. 47% of the American public doesn't even pay any income tax, and this isn't the rich (who pay a large percentage of our income taxation). .

Do the poor really pay no taxes?

(...)Most people's tax burden has a very different composition. As David Leonhardt points out in a typically excellent column today, "about three-quarters of all American households pay more in payroll taxes, which go toward Medicare and Social Security, than in income taxes." And that doesn't even mention state and local income taxes.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/04/do_the_poor_really_pay_no_taxe.html

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

Not if we don't have the money for it. Again, if we don't have the money for a select few, how do we have the money FOR everybody?!

<snip>

Scrapping the for-profit insurance companies and vastly simplifying the billing system.

Nationalising large parts of the infrastructure used to provide healthcare, including purchasing so that bulk discounts can be achieved.

Explicit rationing of care based on scientific evidence.

You know, all the things that go on in your idea of Hell.

 

[TFian]

Scrapping the for-profit insurance companies and vastly simplifying the billing system.

How?

Nationalising large parts of the infrastructure used to provide healthcare, including purchasing so that bulk discounts can be achieved.

Where will we get the money for that?

Explicit rationing of care based on scientific evidence.

So you would deny people necessary healthcare?

You know, all the things that go on in your idea of Hell.

Yeah I personally think Cuba sucks ass.

 

[TFian]

Why should we towards a crappy system like the NHS for reform?

Why not a market based system like Hong Kong?

 

[Architect]

Have I missed the bit where TFian has explained why countries such as the UK, Canada, France, and Germany all provide UHC systems - in a variety of forms - for less than the US pay for their system which produces broadly comparable clinical outcomes?

Likewise has he managed to explain why the NHS is "crappy"? You know, beyond unsupported assertions?

 

[TFian]

Have I missed the bit where TFian has explained why countries such as the UK, Canada, France, and Germany all provide UHC systems - in a variety of forms - for less than the US pay for their system which produces broadly comparable clinical outcomes?

Europe is facing a huge aging population crisis, and their health systems will not be so affordable in the near future.

Likewise has he managed to explain why the NHS is "crappy"? You knopw, beyond unsupported assertions?

So you like medicine rooted in the 1970s?

 

[Architect]

Europe is facing a huge aging population crisis, and their health systems will not be so affordable in the near future.

Correct re: aging population. No surprises there. As is the US. As for "affordability", our costs are currently significantly lower than yours. Do you have a point?

So you like medicine rooted in the 1970s?

(sigh)

Evidence?

 

[TFian]

(sigh)

Evidence?

How will the UK deal with an ever increasing aging population?

 

[Architect]

How will the UK deal with an ever increasing aging population?

Answer the question. What evidence do you have regarding your claim that NHS treatment is in some way rooted in the 1970's (the implication being the US isn't, one assumes)?

 

[TFian]

Answer the question. What evidence do you have regarding your claim that NHS treatment is in some way rooted in the 1970's (the implication being the US isn't, one assumes)?

Why are you avoiding my question?

 

[Architect]

Why should we towards a crappy system like the NHS for reform?

Likewise has he managed to explain why the NHS is "crappy"? You know, beyond unsupported assertions?

So you like medicine rooted in the 1970s?

Evidence?

Answer the question. What evidence do you have regarding your claim that NHS treatment is in some way rooted in the 1970's (the implication being the US isn't, one assumes)?

Why are you avoiding my question?

I think it's fairly obvious who's avoiding the question. Now, can you back up your assertion regarding what you suggest are outdated treatment techniques on the NHS?

 

[TFian]

I think it's fairly obvious who's avoiding the question. Now, can you back up your assertion regarding what you suggest are outdated treatment techniques on the NHS?

Sure.

Can you tell me how the UK will deal with the increasing pressure of an aging population?

 

[Architect]

Europe is facing a huge aging population crisis, and their health systems will not be so affordable in the near future.

Correct re: aging population. No surprises there. As is the US. As for "affordability", our costs are currently significantly lower than yours. Do you have a point?

So just to recap, all Western societies are looking at an ageing population profile. A significant number of them have UHC systems covering their entire population cheaper than the US. Even if our costs rise, as they will, our system is still more efficient and affordable than yours.

Do you have a point to make, caller?

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Architect and every other sane poster:

Don't react to TFian's provocation. Given his or her total lack of coherent argument I'd recommend pretending he or she doesn't exist.

 

[Architect]

Sure.

Can you tell me how the UK will deal with the increasing pressure of an aging population?

I direct you to post 2396, above.

Please substantiate your claim that NHS treatment techniques are "rooted in the 1970's".