Is violent political rhetoric and imagery incitement?

A lawsuit on those grounds would be laughed out of court.

Judge: "why did you shoot the this man?"

Witness: "cause I've been following VIP A and her website said he was an enemy of the people and put crosshairs on this guy's name. I logically assumed that meant he was a legitimate target for attack".

Judge: "that's all I needed to hear".

case closed. judgement is for the plainiff in the amount of $10 million.

:)
 
I guess that my view is that the political sphere is best thought of as a marketplace of ideas. To some extent it is self-regulating and to some extent we set rules and limits. While I'd agree that the rhetoric has reached an uncomfortable extreme - I'd be against taking them all to court. Freedom of the idea market is an important thing.

Rejection of the violent imagery and return to more moderate conversations must start with we the voters. So I say no to lawsuits, but I'm fine with the political pendulum swinging back from the extreme a bit.

As a voter, a gun owner, and someone with family members with mental health issues - I think there is a real risk to adopting a very casual attitude toward guns. Guns deserve some respect, care, and proper handling. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I was taught never to even point a toy gun at something I did not intend to shoot. Palin and Kelly both anger me in the sense that they seem like 'fools with guns', and yet are tolerated as being wise in our current political marketplace.

Tragedies like this are an attack on all of us, but it always seems a bit unfair that people I'd vote for are targets, rarely the *********. So, yeah, Aargh.
 
Yes it's a loaded question. I'm just trying understand how important the First Amendment is to you. You might want to include the yelling fire in a theater concept in your response.
That is easily distinguishable from everything else. We can easily prove that yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater is likely to harm people.

You cannot prove that a mentally ill person requires exposure to any specific media to push them over the edge. It's far more likely that someone who wants to do this kind of violence will find some justification somewhere. It is neither possible nor desirable to stifle everything that might trigger a mentally ill person to commit a violent act. (Since any specific input isn't necessary, you would have to quash everything.)

Again, your loaded question is asking me to suppose something that is contrary to fact. Again, it is like asking me if I would support the "final solution" if the Jews were in fact the source of all the ills of society. I would answer that by saying, "They weren't". You could press the issue by asking me to suppose that they were. I would refuse to answer because it's a loaded question.
 
I think we can become a lot more civil then we are currently.
I think this goes to my earlier comment. The news media could do a lot better job of presenting political differences as reasonable minds in disagreement rather than as a shrill contrast of opposite extremes with no one willing to respect the opposing view as something a reasonable person might even entertain.

But there is no place for making this more civil society in lawsuits or criminal charges.
 
Yes, saying whatever the hell you want no matter how ignorant and as long as no one is hurt is OK by me. America is cool like that. Your St. Thomas example is not applicable because the phrase was taken as an order which did in fact hurt someone.

And this differs from Palin et al calling for people to "reload" and "fire an M-16" how?

Second question: Firing a gun at someone is a violent act, even if no one has been hit intentionally or not. For the record, I have been shot at, and in case you are wondering, it's not very cool.

I know that. That´s why I picked the example.

If I fire a gun at you, I don´t hurt you unless you catch a bullet. If I call for you to be shot, I don´t hurt you either unless you catch a bullet. In both cases, it´s completely irrelevant if I was trying to get you killed - I was intentionally engaging in actions that had the potential to get you killed.

Quick caveat: When you open your mouth in public and you have a large a loyal public following then some discretion should be used in exactly how you word things. While I could say 'Those big gubbermint thieves needs to be strung up!' without incident, if someone with the status of Sarah Palin would say something similar then I believe she should be held accountable for that.

So yes, while I hold to my assertion that people should be able to say anything they want so long as no one gets hurt, those in power, political or otherwise, should exercise caution with what they say and how they say it and more importantly, how it could be perceived.

Now we´re getting somewhere.

What Palin et al are saying is technically not a suggestions to commit murder, any more than "Nice place you have; would be shame if something... happened to it" is technically a threat.

These people are not morons. They know that calling Democrats traitors and unamerican and threats to society and "palling around with terrorists" isn´t simply a more pointed way of saying they disagree with people. They know that they are pushing certain buttons with people, and they know that these people are armed.

I´m NOT saying that it is their plan to get Democrats murdered... just that they are at a stage where, not having been able to get power through elections or lawsuits, they are ready to use ANY means to cause trouble to their enemies.

So should we always plan around the actions of the crazy? Should we ban the movie 'Taxi Driver' because some nut extrapolated murder form it? I think that's a few steps too far.

Taxi Driver is fictional. Only a nutter takes a fictional story as motivation for real actions.
Sarah Palin and her campaigning is not fictional. She is calling on people to do something.

See the difference?
 
Judge: "why did you shoot the this man?"

Witness: "cause I've been following VIP A and her website said he was an enemy of the people and put crosshairs on this guy's name. I logically assumed that meant he was a legitimate target for attack".

Judge: "that's all I needed to hear".

case closed. judgement is for the plainiff in the amount of $10 million.

:)

We have an inquisitorial court system now?

And no, putting on a play is no different than repeating yourself.
 
What Palin et al are saying is technically not a suggestions to commit murder, any more than "Nice place you have; would be shame if something... happened to it" is technically a threat.
I don't think that's true, at least not legally. (I'm not sure what you mean by "technically" if it's not meant to be equivalent to "legally".)
 
The entire premise of this thread is absurd. There is no connection between anything Palin ever said or did and the recent shootings. Hell, I don't believe there's evidence that the shooter was even aware of what's being referenced here.

And if you really want to get your panties in a bunch about crosshair imagery, well, there are far better examples.
 
The entire premise of this thread is absurd. There is no connection between anything Palin ever said or did and the recent shootings.

please post the minutes of your thorough interview of the Gifford shooter.

thanks man.
 
evidence?

Because the guy was a communist and nazi sympathizer, not a tea partier.

Evidence that Palin or the tea party had anything to do with his beliefs?

Let me answer that one for you: there is no evidence. You started a thread based on nothing. Not that anyone's really surprised.
 
Because the guy was a communist and nazi sympathizer, not a tea partier.

Evidence that Palin or the tea party had anything to do with his beliefs?

Let me answer that one for you: there is no evidence. You started a thread based on nothing. Not that anyone's really surprised.

huh??
because he has the communist manifesto and mein kampf on his bookshelf?
that's a stretch....even for you.

i have several bibles and a couple of korans on mine, and i am neither christian nor muslim.
 
Let me answer that one for you: there is no evidence. You started a thread based on nothing. Not that anyone's really surprised.

I suggest the next time you participate in a thread, I suggest you read the OP first.

This thread is NOT about the recent attack. The thread was inspired by it, but its not about it.

Its a general discussion about violent political language and imagery..and
whether it should be considered incitement.

:)
 
Because the guy was a communist and nazi sympathizer, not a tea partier.

Nazi sympathizer????

Communist???

because he had Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto on his bookshelf???

yikes. I have the Koran & The Joy of Sex on my bookshelf, does that make me a Muslim Sexaholic?
 
It's about nothing. .

no, this is not an episode of Seinfeld.

There is no violent imagery or incitement in what you refer to.

In your opinion. And apparently Miss Palin disagrees with you, as she pulled the website within hours of the shooting. She clearly felt she had something to hide.

Now, what about the political event hosted by Gifford's opponent in the 2010 election, where folks were asked to come help "get Gifford out of office", by shooting a picture of Gifford with a fully auto M-16?

is THAT violent political imagery?

what about Dennis Prager saying that the United States was now in a "civil war" after Obama was elected?

:confused:
 
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No. Because he included them among his favorites.

While I think you might be right, that isn't evidence he believed in their message. The Prince might be someone's favorite, but not subscribe to some of it's prescribed techniques. Unless we know the reason he liked them so much, we can't say why.
 
no, this is not an episode of Seinfeld.

Obviously not, or it might be slightly amusing. This thread, though, is just sad and pathetic.

In your opinion. And apparently Miss Palin disagrees with you, as she pulled the website within hours of the shooting. She clearly felt she had something to hide.

It got pulled because it got criticized, and it's not a fight she wants to spend any energy on.

Now, what about the political event hosted by Gifford's opponent in the 2010 election, where folks were asked to come help "get Gifford out of office", by shooting a picture of Gifford with a fully auto M-16?

Sounds a lot more relevant to me. So why didn't you start your thread about that, rather than focusing on quite innocuous target imagery, which, I might add, has been shared by democrats as well?

Oh, that's right: Palin is your bogeyman, Gifford's opponent is unimportant.

And don't think that it's escaped my notice how one-sided your focus is either.
 
No. Because he included them among his favorites.

Yes, and these are:

Animal Farm
Brave New World
The Wizard Of OZ
Aesop Fables
The Odyssey
Alice Adventures Into Wonderland
Fahrenheit 451
Peter Pan
To Kill A Mockingbird
We The Living
Phantom Toll Booth
One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest
Pulp
Through The Looking Glass
The Communist Manifesto
Siddhartha
The Old Man And The Sea
Gulliver's Travels
Mein Kampf
The Republic
Meno

from his list of favorite books, we can deduce that he was a Communist Nazi-sympathizer who was against Authoritarianism, didn't want to grow up, hated discrimination, loved heroes who fought evil, loved fantasy, and enjoyed Greek epics.

however, you just call him a Communist Nazi-sympathizer. interesting.

:rolleyes:
 

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