Merged Rep. Giffords Shot In Tucson

TraneWreck said:
Thus, regardless of why this person attacked the crowd, this high-profile, public attack needs to serve as a wake-up call.
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LoL. Your whole post only fans the flames. A poetic post by Newton's Trino will never stop the hatred Americans feel for themselves. Your country is doomed.

There will be no wake up call. Somewhere, on some forum, there is some fool right now, calling for an end to the heated rhetoric, all the while blaming liberals and America haters, and pointing out all the left wing travesties he can google up. And they will always have the "14 million babies murdered every year" to fall back on if they can't find any incidents of violence. You trotted out a dozen homicides at best, and still tried to make it appear as if it is a crisis of the right... because you want it to be that way.

I stopped caring about the trainwreck America is headed for a couple of years ago. I simply learned to love and embrace the doom about to fall upon it. You think this issue is hot, just wait until some Mexican drug cartel shoots up a white family in Arizona. You ain't seen nothing yet.

I love to see the sad faces here on these forums and elsewhere, because it is a fraction of the pain you will all be feeling for your pathetic little empire when it really starts to fall apart. Your nationalism and belief in the American system "flawed, but still the best we have" is such a huge part of all your egos, you have no idea how much of that will be smashed to pieces. In fact, I'd dare say the current recession/depression we are in now has less to do with economic circumstance, and more to do with a nation full of divorced, depressed people, disconnected, doped up, debt ridden people, miserable and realizing they will never attain the American dreams they had as children. Why work when everything you have is taken away, sometimes more than once, in your life?

There are more twenty somethings living with their parents now than there has been in the past century. There is no hope for them. There are no jobs or careers that don't include fries or paper or plastic or a blue vest with a smiley button on it... and that just doesn't jibe with their reality show driven fantasies.

There will be no recovery. There will only be misery and anger and scapegoats, mark my words. There certainly will be no "wake-up calls" that will once again galvanize the American people. 9/11 was the last chance for that, and it was blown by extremist politicians with dangerous policies fashioned in fear and ignorance paraded as "moderates".

Polarization wins votes, and obscures the real issues. That's your reality. It has been shown on this board, and it has been shown all over the internet with this incident. Everyone is chomping at the bit to get at this guy and paint him as their opposition, and believe you me, there is no way this incident will tone down the rhetoric. In 3 months, the vitriol will be higher than it ever was.

Ain't chaos great? Without it, nothing would ever change. Just embrace it.

It wasn't always that way, it won't always be that way, but right now the violence is on the right.
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Lol, gasoline, meet fire.

I'll be honest, it is obvious to me this kid was pretty left oriented, and a CT'er. Kind of like I am. Kind of like Joe stack was. But go ahead and keep up the polarizing B.S. seriously, I have no love left for my fellow Americans, as you can plainly see, and all this in-fighting absolutely delights me.
 
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Travis said:
I fail to see a contradiction. In one I note that, based on his Youtube videos, he's likely associated with the conspiracy movement which turned out to be true. In the other I note that debating his involvement is irrelevant to policy decisions.



What?
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What is the conspiracy movement? Unfortunately, as Sword of Truth has already done, you're simply lumping this lunatic in with any idea you don't agree with, and holding your opponents responsible.

The guy belongs to one movement only: the irrational murderers movement.
 
Alt+F4 said:
I don't think this is about politics. I don't think this is about gun control. I think it's about how mental illness is regarded and treated (not treated) in the United States.
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Those issues are extremely important in this case. They shouldn't exclude the political issues but they shouldn't be overlooked either.

This guy bought his gun fairly recently, long after he was clearly thinking abnormally. Did the gun seller not notice or not care.

So far no one has tracked down the mother to see what she did after meeting with the community college staff that suspended Loughner. Did she ignore their advice, was she just unable to act, or were there no resources for her?

If the college was concerned about the risk Loughner posed to himself or others as has been reported (don't know if it has been confirmed) then why not refer him for that mental health assessment themselves? This looks like a hole in the plans that were developed after the VA Tech shooting. I'm going to check on what the FBI report on this kind of school violence said about just getting the person off campus.
 
TraneWreck said:
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There is no equivalency. It wasn't always that way, it won't always be that way, but right now the violence is on the right.
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That's the way I see it, and my e-mails confirm, and my social contacts... many of them are seriously upset with the state of this union.
 
BobTheDonkey said:
A wake-up call to what?

That there are violent nuts in the world? We all know that. Violence happens. Especially when the economy feels like it's in the *******. People's specific circumstances begin to feel dire and they react in less-than-ideal ways.
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A wake up call to the violent groups in this country that are literally preparing for a Civil War. Obviously they aren't substantial enough to actually cause such a thing, but they can kill a whole bunch of people along the way.

Scott Roeder, Timothy McVeigh, these people did not appear from nowhere.

BobTheDonkey said:
Should the rhetoric be toned down? Sure, I'd like to see less violent rhetoric, but that doesn't mean we should misrepresent this guys' violence for something that it's not. As Jon Stewart said at his rally (paraphrased): make those people work for the title and hold them accountable on their own accord.

Hold Palin and her camp accountable for their rhetoric because it's their rhetoric, not because some whackjob shooting up a crowd was falsely attributed to Palin, et al, because of personal biases.
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Again, there's a great deal of violence going on in this country as a direct result of the anti-government paranoid nonsense that Beck, Palin and others are flaming. This is higher profile. Look at the list. Go to the link.

We've been ignoring it just like we ignored the militia movements in the 90's until McVeigh took action. He was a homicidal maniac, certainly, but he was operating out of an ideology. There was a movement from which he emerged, and that same group of people are beating their drums again.

This time, however, they have much higher profile voices reaching wider audiences.
 
FSM76 said:
HOWEVER, neglecting to examine the potential that he was influenced by this rhetoric, etc. is just silly.
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and it would make us bad skeptics, if we did not.

some folks want to act as though these murders have occurred within a political vacuum.

some folks want to act as though this attempt at political assassination occurred at a time of peace, love, and harmony between all peoples of varying political and ideological persuasions.

not only is this silly, but it is dishonest.

did the violent and extremist political rhetoric of the last couple of years motivate this particular killer? we do not know yet.

but it is only reasonable and prudent to ask.

do some of you prefer we not???? that would be like demanding that we do not ask and debate if terrorists were motivated by extremist Muslim ideology, extreme Irish Republicanism, etc etc.
 
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Sorry I stopped giving updates on this situation yesterday. After my last post post I received another texted from my friend and it contained the name of another victim. This victim was an acquaintance of mine. While I did not know him well I knew him and it was too much for me to continue providing info.

We often joke in Tucson that you can't go anywhere without running into someone who knows you or knows someone who knows you. We don't play 6 degrees of separation its 2 or 3. Its was inevitable that if 18 people were to get shot I would know one of them.

I haven't read the last 20 some pages but I will restate that my friend providing info was informed that a second suspect was arrested. Gun was glock 9mm. All other details are, I am sure, available through the regular channels.

I assume there is a whole lot of finger pointing and grandstanding going on. Lets just stop for a moment and recognize how sick our society has become.
 
slingblade said:
I've never seen any of those images before, because I am apolitical and don't follow politics, closely or otherwise. The only time I come in contact with politics is through happenstance. I certainly don't go about looking for it, which explains why I've not seen any of those images until I saw them here.

The reason I am here is because I happened to overhear the news program my husband was watching, and heard of the shooting. I'd have looked for a thread about it regardless of who the victim was, a school shooting, a bar brawl, any reason. I was curious, and wanted to see what was being said.

When I saw the image of Palin's PAC image, I was appalled at the cross hairs and the names attached. That I now find out others have made similar images is just as appalling to me as Palin's image. I am equally upset at all of them.

I am also tired of being lumped into some imaginary group that blames Palin for the shooting.

I blame her AND the others for over-blown, over-the-top rhetoric. Kids are taught that, even with toy guns, you don't point guns at people. Some of them don't care or don't listen, but that's the usual message parents try to impart. Don't target people, don't point weapons, real or facsimiles, at people.

Did Palin's target image incite this kid? (He's 22.) I don't know, and I rather doubt it. Is the message better or more acceptable because it probably didn't influence him? No. It is most certainly not.

Not budging, no matter how much more over-blown and fallacious rhetoric is hurled at me.
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Mortal Kombat set the mold for allowing kids getting enjoyment out of "Fantasy acts of violence"

Compared to "political maps"; the type of games kids play now days, make "pretend bulls eyes and cross hairs" look like child's play. Seriously people. Wake up please!? We have created a culture of death and violence worship. Have you ever been to the movies lately!?

It reminds me of the Roman Coliseums but its "pretend" so to speak
 
UWdude said:
Lol, gasoline, meet fire.

I'll be honest, it is obvious to me this kid was pretty left oriented, and a CT'er. Kind of like I am. Kind of like Joe stack was. But go ahead and keep up the polarizing B.S. seriously, I have no love left for my fellow Americans, as you can plainly see, and all this in-fighting absolutely delights me.
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You're welcome to your fatalism, I take solice in the fact that this nation has survived far worse.

As for the gasoline, that's only true if people decide to be completely stubborn. In the 70's, when Bill Ayers was wandering around and the Black Panthers were actually the Black Panthers, there was a SERIOUS problem with violence on the left. That has more or less been supressed, but it's always present.

Resorting to violence is not unique to any political pursuasion, but at any given moment the facts are the facts. You can try to deny it or you can try to fix it.

I sort of prefer the latter, but we can also pretend like our broad political affiliation is perfect.
 
UWdude said:
LoL. Your whole post only fans the flames. A poetic post by Newton's Trino will never stop the hatred Americans feel for themselves. Your country is doomed......
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Yawn....

If one has any criticism for something political the false ad homs come out,
  • you hate the country
  • you hate yourself
  • you hate our "freedom"
  • you hope it is true
  • you are lying
These platitudes are nothing but ad homs used to diminish the criticism someone doesn't want to address. An ad hom that doesn't have a shred of truth in it has no effect other than to stop true debate.

They are a FAIL.
 
People who incite other people to violence should be taken out and shot.



Oh, wait!
 
USEagle13 said:
The 22 year old perp is evil and deserves the death sentence ASAP. Tax payer money should not be wasted keeping evil like this alive so it car further infect others in jail. Jail is a breeding ground for CT's, anti-govt, and anti-society propaganda. They usually come out as worse criminals than before.

As far as the Wheeler murder I find it funny the FBI wasn't involved from day 1. Oh wait....I forgot....he was a Republican and the FBI is controlled by liberals now whom are Bush haters anyways; so that explains that one....
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Poes law? I'm never good at telling if this kind of post is sarcasm or not.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
So far no one has tracked down the mother to see what she did after meeting with the community college staff that suspended Loughner. Did she ignore their advice, was she just unable to act, or were there no resources for her?
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Why do you single out the mother? Parents.
 
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