Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Mary_H]

So what you are saying is that Van Zandt has probably changed his mind about the case because he hasn't come out and said he's changed his mind, and that Moore has the same professional credentials as Van Zandt because they both retired from the FBI after they had worked long enough to retire?

No. If Van Zandt wants his position on the case to be current, he should speak out. People on the pro-guilt side constantly quote his very early remarks as if they necessarily represent his position. It would be interesting to know if he would openly stand in opposition to the other former FBI agents who have spoken publicly about the case.

My last line was directed at the many pro-guilt posters who have dismissed Steve Moore strictly because he retired after "only" 25 years with the FBI. They have suggested his "short" 25-year career is an indication that he couldn't hack it or that he was let go. You would not be aware of that argument if you have not followed their many criticisms of him over the past few months.

 

[lionking]

Has anyone consulted the RCMP? The NYPD? The Met?

Why should opinions of retired FBI operatives be taken any notice of, one way or other?

 

[treehorn]

The pretence that you and TomM43 are practicing trial lawyers has cratered, since it's obvious neither of you have more than the shallowest familiarity with actual cross-examination (regardless of how often you refer to it as "cross").

I can't speak for Tom (who has, if I'm not mistaken, over 3 decades of experience as a trial lawyer).

Edited by LashL: 

Removed breach.

 

[treehorn]

John Douglas...
Elite enough for you treehorn?

Yup.

But he is a gun-for-hire now, so ...

I just hope that he won't tarnish his reputation (and the Bureau) in the process of 'consulting' for Team Knox.

Like Hal Holbrook's character, Lou, in the movie 'Wall Street' said:

"The main thing about money, Bud, is that it makes you do things you don't want to do."

 

[Mary_H]

Has anyone consulted the RCMP? The NYPD? The Met?

Why should opinions of retired FBI operatives be taken any notice of, one way or other?

I would be happy to hear the opinions of anyone from the RCMP or the NYPD. The Met, not so much. They probably love Italian opera.

 

[Mary_H]

Yup.

But he is a gun-for-hire now, so ...

I just hope that he won't tarnish his reputation (and the Bureau) in the process of 'consulting' for Team Knox.

Like Hal Holbrook's character, Lou, in the movie 'Wall Street' said:

"The main thing about money, Bud, is that it makes you do things you don't want to do."

Apparently there is not enough money in the world to get someone in the public eye to speak out in support of the prosecution's case.

 

[treehorn]

Here is a link to a 11/08/2010 Newsvine article with Van Zandt's by line. The article does not offer a point of view, but the headline does:

Amanda Knox: Neither a Murderer nor a Slanderer be...

http://clintvanzandt.newsvine.com/_...da-knox-neither-a-murderer-nor-a-slanderer-benot

It's merely a play on a famous line from Hamlet:

"Neither a borrower nor a lender be..."

Van Zandt is offering no POV whatsoever there, except perhaps to suggest that murdering and slandering people - as Knox appears to have done - ought to be avoided.

 

[HumanityBlues]

It's merely a play on a famous line from Hamlet:

"Neither a borrower nor a lender be..."

Van Zandt is offering no POV whatsoever, except perhaps to suggest that murdering and slandering people - as Knox appears to have done - ought to be avoided.

When first presented the evidence and theories of the prosecution, I believed what they said. Now, though I question the many lies told by Amanda and her boyfriend, I have not seen the evidence needed to convict in the USA.

While I believe she should have been tried, I question the hard evidence that proves murder and puts her at the crime scene. I have tried to keep an open mind regarding the evidence and not line up on one side or the other.

 

[treehorn]

Apparently there is not enough money in the world to get someone in the public eye to speak out in support of the prosecution's case.

The dead cannot hire PR teams.

 

[Malkmus]

It's merely a play on a famous line from Hamlet:

"Neither a borrower nor a lender be..."

Van Zandt is offering no POV whatsoever there, except perhaps to suggest that murdering and slandering people - as Knox appears to have done - ought to be avoided.

Well, the following is Van Zandt's point of view:

Upon review, the prosecutor's current theory concerning Kercher's murder appears to be almost too bizarre, too dark and too crazy to be true. Usually murder is not a complicated crime and the motive for murder is equally simple. The comic book inspired one-way sex game and subsequent murder theory offered by the prosecutor seems just too tabloid'istic, more of a bad made-for-TV movie script than one that could creditably account for the death of Kercher. The judges and jury will need to embrace this theory in order to believe that the two young lovers somehow conspired with Guede to kill Kercher.

http://clintvanzandt.newsvine.com/_...nox-cold-blooded-killer-or-angel-faced-victim

Do you agree with him?

 

[treehorn]

I will not rehash other people's debunking of this litany of erroneous or irrational claims.

Is that what's passing for a rebuttal these days?

(Now that your theory has imploded, have you at least bothered to read the Court's judgment with a little more care?)

 

[treehorn]

The fact remains that despite what you tried to claim earlier, Amanda met Rudy once that we know of, saw Rudy once at her place of work that we know of, did not know Rudy (in a perfectly ordinary and uncontroversial sense of the word "know whatever quibbles you may raise), and there is no evidence at all they ever shared drugs.

My theory of the case requires only that:

1) Amanda knew Rudy well enough to say: "Hey, Rudy, wanna help me pull a Halloween "rape prank" on my roommate, Meredith, tonight?" &

2) Rudy knew Amanda well enough to have developed a 'crush' on her/ willingness to impress/please her.

The fact that Amanda did not know Rudy well enough to accurately assess the defects in his character only adds to the strength of my theory.

 

[Mary_H]

Is that what's passing for a rebuttal these days?

No, this is: "The dead cannot hire PR teams."

(Now that your theory has imploded, have you at least bothered to read the Court's judgment with a little more care?)

"The translation is incomplete! We do not have the photos, exhibits, transcripts, reports, etc., that are referred to by the Court!"

 

[treehorn]

I have to agree with other posters who said that this attempt at a theory is at least a step in the right direction (although you really should cite your source, Michael at the PMF forums, unless you are going to try to claim that it's sheer coincidence that you are reading so closely off his latest hymnbook).

I wasn't aware that a theory lost points for being 'derivative' ...

I thought it was all about getting at the truth simpliciter.

In any event, I wouldn't dream of claiming that I knew more about the fact pattern than any of the 'old guard' at PMF.

"Michael" et al. have likely forgotten more about this case (and the backdrop) than you and I will ever know, Kevin.

I'm sure that the posts of "Michael" (and many others at PMF) have influenced my thinking. Too many names, and too many posts to mention really.

There have been so many intelligent, well-informed and insightful PMF contributors that it's difficult to say which one in particular influenced me the most.

Alas, I don't doubt that rational people the world over are subscribing to the 'rape prank' theory (not that everyone at PMF subscribes to that theory).

I happen to think it's the correct view and I am, therefore, glad to have a lot of company.

The problem is that this isn't a theory yet. Before your theory can even be described as possible you need to fill in what happened when, and how is it to be reconciled with Rudy's testimony, the computer evidence and the autopsy evidence.

I'm not able to submit something akin to a 427 page ratio for the board.

Have you done so?

Has anyone?

I'll tell you right now that you're going to have to throw Massei under the bus to make this one work, which will be pretty funny given the love you have been expressing for Massei.

Well, I already have parted ways with Massei, to some degree.

Massei does not subscribe to the "rape prank" theory. For example, Massei thinks Amanda carried the big knife in her purse for protection, whereas I think she brought it along as a 'prop' for her 'rape prank'.

 

[Malkmus]

Van Zandt assessed the evidence in the Knox case for NBC and thought it was damning.

Van Zandt wrote:

The defense will find the prosecution's indicated motive for murder to be absurd, and they have their own experts who will try to shoot holes in the believed damning physical evidence that appears to link the two suspects left standing with the crime scene and with Meredith's murder.

This is the source that Van Zandt found the evidence damning?! You realize he's not saying he believes it's damning, right? Nice to see though that you find him credible.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Van Zandt wrote:


This is the source that Van Zandt found the evidence damning?! You realize he's not saying he believes it's damning, right? Nice to see though that you find him credible.

God dammit JREFers.

Treehorn, just take the bate will ya?

When first presented the evidence and theories of the prosecution, I believed what they said. Now, though I question the many lies told by Amanda and her boyfriend, I have not seen the evidence needed to convict in the USA.

While I believe she should have been tried, I question the hard evidence that proves murder and puts her at the crime scene. I have tried to keep an open mind regarding the evidence and not line up on one side or the other.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>I'm not able to submit something akin to a 427 page ratio for the board.

Have you done so?

Has anyone?

Several people on the pro-innocent side have described possible scenarios for the crime. However, the position of the defense is primarily to require the prosecution to prove their scenario.

 

[treehorn]

Van Zandt wrote:


This is the source that Van Zandt found the evidence damning?! You realize he's not saying he believes it's damning, right? Nice to see though that you find him credible.

No.

I cited his TV appearance (NBC):

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22332240/ns/dateline_nbc-crime_reports/

"Clint thinks Amanda, with the forensic evidence, her shifting stories -- yes I was there, no I wasn't -- coupled with her false accusation of Lumumba has put her in a perilous situation. ...

"Clint Van Zandt: These are good cops. They're linking together all of the technology, cell phone, internet, crime scene forensic evidence. I think when this is all over and done with we will find out what happened to Meredith that terrible night.

Clint Van Zandt: I think Amanda has got an uphill battle. She's painted herself back into a corner that she's going to have a hard time getting' out of. The only thing that's going to get her out of it is the truth. But this is someone, because of physical evidence and because of the statements of others, may very well take a hard fall for this homicide.

Clint Van Zandt: Realize that this is a young woman wearing two masks. One mask is Amanda, the good girl, grew up in a Catholic school, an athlete, does what her mother says. And then you've got this other mask that when she gets here it's: “I’m going wild, I’m having fun. This is where I sow my wild oats.” Now which is the true Amanda? Probably both.

[emphasis added]"

 

[Malkmus]

"Hey, Rudy, wanna help me pull a Halloween "rape prank" on my roommate, Meredith, tonight?"

Sounds like a line from a bad 80's after-school special.

"Come on, you know you want to, Rudy. All the cool kids do it."

 

[treehorn]

Sounds like a line from a bad 80's after-school special.

"Come on, you know you want to, Rudy. All the cool kids do it."

You can't even HINT at a swear word on this board!

My 'screen writing skills' suffer enormously as a result.