Merged Rep. Giffords Shot In Tucson

[A'isha]

Yeah his yt vid ends with "you can't make me believe in God" or something like that.

Which is a dumb extrapolation, since in the vid he was going off on a rant about how federal currency was bad and untrustworthy, and even though it says "In God We Trust" on it, he can't "trust God" because he can't trust the money.

It doesn't appear to have anything to do with actual religious beliefs (or lack thereof) on his part.

 

[deepatrax]

The woman who was shot point-blank in the back of the head. Under your logic; if an explosive failed to kill the Archduke but actually killed a bodyguard instead then the bodyguard was the target all along.

You might be right...after all the Left wing Daily Kos did have Rep. Giffords on it's "target" list.

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

I'll take: Distinction without a Difference for 200, Alex

You don't think there is a difference between a bullseye and a crosshair? Here's a hint; you throw darts at one and aim a gun with the other. I'll leave determining which is which entirely up to you.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Some things are a little bigger and more important than your own personal belt notch system.

Like what?

 

[novice skeptic]

I'll go the other way and say both are fine. This was done because of a deeply disturbed mind, not because of any overly-scrutinized symbols on a website.

And it says nothing about other atheists, just as if he'd been a believer of some sort it wouldn't have said anything about them.... but there certainly would have been some here who would have made a guilt by association attempt.

Seems like a disturbed individual, and I'm hoping the reports about others involved are wrong.

 

[SmartyPants]

Personally, I'm not interested in assigning blame outside of the actual assassin.

My hope is that one, small glimmer of good can come from this in that we can see a unification of both sides of the aisle in toning down the rhetoric.

And even if that does come to pass, it's still a terrible tragedy that it took something like this to make it happen.

Amen to that.

 

[slingblade]

Personally, I'm not interested in assigning blame outside of the actual assassin.

My hope is that one, small glimmer of good can come from this in that we can see a unification of both sides of the aisle in toning down the rhetoric.
And even if that does come to pass, it's still a terrible tragedy that it took something like this to make it happen.

That is all I'm trying to say. It's getting extreme, on all sides, and it needs to stop.

ETA: this is the first I've ever seen of any of these images, and I'd have long since been appalled at any of them, had I ever seen them. It's wrong. Period. Just wrong.

 

[novice skeptic]

Like what?

nothing. all that matters is thaiboxerken's internet scorecard. peace

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

You might be right...after all the Left wing Daily Kos did have Rep. Giffords on it's "target" list.

Ahh, deflection straight on into trolling it is then.

 

[applecorped]

Because I'm talking about political rhetoric concerning violence. Whether that motivated the shooter or not, I'm arguing it's wrong. You disagree?

Or are you arguing she didn't put crosshairs over her district?

Start a new thread then.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Now, do you honestly think that's what I meant, or are you just bored today and engaging in goofy bickering?

Okay, I read it the wrong way then. My apologies.

Facts always matter. The degree of certainty, however, is much different when deciding to put someone in prison for life vs. having a discussion on an internet forum.

Yeah, that's the neat thing about a trial. You actually get to present the best evidence.
As a defense attorney, news stories can cut both ways.

So what is the best evidence we now have about this incident, counselor? I've asked you this three times now, and you have yet to respond or even link to the facts of this incident presented in this thread.

That's pretty telling, to me.

 

[Newtons Bit]

This attack has quite literally brought me to tears. I did not vote for Congresswoman Giffords, nor do I agree with much of her politics, yet still I suffer from hearing of her wounds. For an attack against a duly elected Representative of this country is not a personal crime. It is an attack against every person in this nation. The would-be assassin has rejected the one thing that binds all Americans together: liberty. He has rejected the concept of self-governance by attempting to assassinate the Congresswoman. He has rejected that the People ought to choose their own laws by electing Representatives. He has written with gunpowder and blood that his own beliefs of governance are the only ones that can be acceptable. And that makes him a tyrant.

I hope that this is explained to him on the day of his sentencing, so that he may be deprived of the self-consolement of, "I did this for the country!" or, "I helped free people". No sir, you did not. You are a want-to-be despot who has rejected the right of the people to choose their own governance.

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

Which is a dumb extrapolation, since in the vid he was going off on a rant about how federal currency was bad and untrustworthy, and even though it says "In God We Trust" on it, he can't "trust God" because he can't trust the money.

It doesn't appear to have anything to do with actual religious beliefs (or lack thereof) on his part.

Without clarification from him I actually agree. He noted the US flag as an unknown flag. The actual physical red white and blue flag as "unknown" because it was not in the Constitution. His lacking trust in God and imperviousness to be forced to believe might be a "God of the money" sort of deal. "Your God is Capitalism." However, being an atheist and being looney atheist rhetoric is still a strong possibility.

Curiously, if he does turn out to be an atheist would this be the first attempted political assassination by a confirmed atheist in the US?

 

[Drudgewire]

Which is a dumb extrapolation, since in the vid he was going off on a rant about how federal currency was bad and untrustworthy, and even though it says "In God We Trust" on it, he can't "trust God" because he can't trust the money.

It doesn't appear to have anything to do with actual religious beliefs (or lack thereof) on his part.

The whole time I was reading I kept thinking of Brad Pitt in Se7en:

When someone is insane, as you clearly are...do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around reading Guns and Ammo... masturbating in your own feces ... do you just stop and go "Wow! It is amazing how ing crazy I really am?"

 

[deepatrax]

Ahh, deflection straight on into trolling it is then.

I see...it only matters when someone on the Right does it...

Hypocrisy noted.

 

[TraneWreck]

Sure. It's a metaphor.

Not for everyone, sadly.

Less so. It's not by any means criminal, but I don't think it's productive.

I don't think anyone ever suggested it was criminal, just in poor taste.

Don't know what was actually said.

There's this cool thing called "google":

You know, our Founding Fathers, they put that Second Amendment in there for a good reason and that was for the people to protect themselves against a tyrannical government. And in fact Thomas Jefferson said it's good for a country to have a revolution every 20 years.

I hope that's not where we're going, but, you know, if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies and saying my goodness what can we do to turn this country around? I'll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/06/sharron_angle_floated_possibil.html

I wonder if this sort of thing is what she meant. Do you have another interpretation?

The murderer was a murderer.

Sure. And sometimes murders emerge from movements, like the person who assassinated Dr. Tiller or, say, the 19 hijackers that perpetrated 9-11.

Just murderers being murderers or do we need to look deeper?

"Condemning"?

Yes. I condemn glib references to politically motivated violence. You support them?

Then you don't know what incitement to violence is.

If Palin had said that people should shoot Giffords, she would have been arrested. She didn't say that, or anything resembling that. You'd need to be deeply irrational to reach such a conclusion. Perhaps the gunman did make such a conclusion. In that case, he's deeply irrational. You cannot possibly expect people to be held accountable for what the insane do in response to their words.

Well, you could I guess, but then you'd be deeply irrational too.

I've never suggested Palin should be arrested. I do think, however, that we need to scrutinize the hyperbole coming out of the right over these last few years.

The groundwork for Dr. Tiller's murder was laid by years of propaganda in the fundamentalist community about abortion doctors being agents for Satan and such. It's not idle chat. The same is true of the wide-eyed hysteria of Angle, Beck, and other figures on the right.

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

I see...it only matters when someone on the Right does it...

Hypocrisy noted.

That actually made me laugh, thanks for that.

 

[johnny karate]

How do you know that it was Gifford's who was targeted?

Thankfully, she's still alive.

However, Federal Judge John M. Roll, appointed by Republican George H W Bush, was killed.

Shooter tags a Democratic Congresswoman and a federal judge nominated by a Republican president (on the recommendation of John McCain).

a Republican appointed Federal Judge has died.

who was the target again?

It was a publicized Gabrielle Giffords event. Judge John Roll was not scheduled or expected to be there.

 

[MattusMaximus]

I've never suggested Palin should be arrested. I do think, however, that we need to scrutinize the hyperbole coming out of the right over these last few years.

The groundwork for Dr. Tiller's murder was laid by years of propaganda in the fundamentalist community about abortion doctors being agents for Satan and such. It's not idle chat. The same is true of the wide-eyed hysteria of Angle, Beck, and other figures on the right.

I find no fault at all in these statements.

But hindsight is 20/20 - we do not, as yet, know all the facts of this current incident. Btw, what are those facts that we do know, counselor?

 

[applecorped]

Here is a little circumstantial evidence that Palin or her people feel that they may have had some guilt in this. They took the damn sign down. Today. After the shooting. Is it suddenly less appropriate now? Or is it just in need of updating as it has a superfluous set of crosshairs on it now?

May have? You can't wait to find out? Are you sure this isn't Bush's fault?