John Edward - psychic or what?

[Dani]

John Edward - psychic or what?

Definitely what.

 

[ynot]

The really sad thing is even when these people are completely and utterly exposed it has little or no adverse effect on their scam business.

Example - http://www.badpsychics.co.uk/au/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7

Webber went on to considerable fame and fortune on Sensing Murder and now gets NZ$500 + per reading with a five year waiting list.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

One possibility I've not seen mentioned is that Edwards was getting information from the casino staff and not just his own staff. The casino is hosting Edwards (and presumably other psychics) because they believe he will draw in crowds who will, in turn, spend money. It's not unthinkable that he might have the casino staff brief him on any information they pick up.

If Liam was there before you were could he have played the tables for a bit while waiting? He was, after all, on holiday in Vegas. Could he have bought a drink, introduced himself to the barmaid, then paid with his credit card?

Is there any reason to suppose that the photographers you mention couldn't have been feeding him information? They don't work for him but if, before the show, one of Edwards' staff told them that they'd get an extra $20 if they gave him information and an extra $10 for every bit he used would they turn it down?

 

[RemieV]

There are a bunch of good choices here for how it could have happened. I gave you a couple more options; it seems like you're discounting them all. Seems like either you have an alternative rational explanation that you're holding onto, or you want to believe he's psychic.

No - I'm not doing either. I just don't feel like spending $300/ticket testing out unlikely scenarios.

4. Liam was not a stooge, but an in-place mechanism used by JE and staff uncovered the information. This is not unheard of, though difficult in these circumstances if Liam's memory is as trustworthy as yours. It is this part that I seriously doubt. Plus, you have overlooked something obvious: Liam perhaps did not speak to anyone in line besides you, but he did speak to people at his table, enough so that they knew he called himself Liam and not Joshua. Did they share stories? Show pictures of children out of their wallets? Leave their wallets in coat pockets draped carelessly over the backs of chairs? What is the likelihood that JE had a plant at some or all of the tables and that the plants could communicate even during the show if they discovered something actionable?

5. Liam was not a stooge and JE had no plant at his table. Then we are left with something unplanned somehow dropping the info into JE's lap. The fact that such a hit is rare or unheard of lends credence to this. This hit is far less remarkable than Harry Kellar's reading of a traveling actor in the orient which I have described more than once on this forum. If this is the case, we will likely never know how it happened.

It should be obvious that I lean to number 5 or number 6. As improbably as they may seem, they are still more probable than number 1.

For number 4 - The magicians I have spoken to in regards to John Edward have said that plants in the audience are highly unlikely for two different reasons: You're giving up seats that people might actually purchase, and plants are not necessary. I can see John Edward filling his audience with plants for a show that was going to be televised, but this was, as I said, 150 people. Actually, I take it back. I can't see John Edward doing that for even a televised show, because video editing makes that pointless. In the end, the fewer people who know what trick you're pulling, the better. Having plants all over the place is bad for business.

I can see number 5 being true. Of the possibilities given, I find that the most likely. I will say this, though - John Edward is extremely impressive. Not just in this one particular reading, and not just with this one piece of information. I'm relatively sure he is working with some amount of information - I just haven't the foggiest how he's getting it. I was never asked questions by anyone, I never had to fill anything out (nor was there anything TO fill out), and so far as I can tell, a casino would NEVER hand out information on people. Perhaps these folks are just offering themselves up in e-mails or something, which would mean that I can't ever catch him at it, which is way annoying.

BTW, you didn't actually put a six, so I can't tell what you're leaning toward.

One possibility I've not seen mentioned is that Edwards was getting information from the casino staff and not just his own staff. The casino is hosting Edwards (and presumably other psychics) because they believe he will draw in crowds who will, in turn, spend money. It's not unthinkable that he might have the casino staff brief him on any information they pick up.

If Liam was there before you were could he have played the tables for a bit while waiting? He was, after all, on holiday in Vegas. Could he have bought a drink, introduced himself to the barmaid, then paid with his credit card?

Is there any reason to suppose that the photographers you mention couldn't have been feeding him information? They don't work for him but if, before the show, one of Edwards' staff told them that they'd get an extra $20 if they gave him information and an extra $10 for every bit he used would they turn it down?

I find this INCREDIBLY unlikely, simply because Vegas operates on discretion. People would quickly stop staying at the Flamingo if they knew that the staff was, in essence, spying upon them. This would be the equivalent of the staff of a strip club taking down license plate numbers from their parking lot and handing them over to a third party. Very very very bad for business.

The photographer idea still remains a possibility, but it strikes me as unlikely as well. I know no one's going to believe this, but John Edward was giving rather extensive information on people with little to no feedback. The photographers walked up, shot a photo, and walked away. They weren't really standing there long enough to get the amount of information Edward was giving.

Okay, here's another moment that was odd and stuck out. The second time I went to the show, there was a couple sitting in front of me. Their child had drowned, or had been drowned, by other children in some kind of prank gone wrong. These people were coated in photographs of said child doing all sorts of things, from sports to reading to bicycle riding. These were the perfect marks because they were visibly carrying everything required for a very convincing read. And they were in the front row, which meant that Edward had an excellent chance to see all of it.

Edward said something about the book 'The Giving Tree'. He said that someone in the room had a child for whom the book was very important. The couple in front of me immediately put their hands up to indicate they thought the reading was about them. John Edward said no, it wasn't a reading for them. He then continued to give details. The couple again put up their hands and said the reading was for them. Edward said no, it wasn't for them, and pointed toward the middle of the room at a different couple and said it was, in fact, for them. He then gave pretty detailed information.

What I mean is - the reading seemed to be tailored for particular people in the audience. He seemed to know in advance who he was going to talk to. For the life of me, I cannot figure out HOW.

 

[Garrette]

You're supposed to divine what I meant by #6 (because I will never, ever, admit that I made a mistake and meant #4 and #5).

Regarding the rest, it's unclear, but I think you're missing the point. By my #5, I don't mean that anything was planned. There need not have been any mechanism in place to gather the information. It could simply have been that once-in-a-month-of-Sundays synchronicities that dropped the info into JE's lap and he capitalized.

Regarding the incident with the grieving parents of the drowned child, I would wager quite a bit that JE has simply become practiced and shrewd. He knows that taking the easy hit (at least too often) would have only a short term pay-off, but conspicuously passing it over for a harder hit will help in the long term. It is one of the reasons that I generally refuse to offer to go head-to-head with professional psychics like JE. Aside from their information-gathering infrastructure, they have far more experience than even the best mentalists, since such things are all that they do, and they do it a lot. Of course, that means it seems like I'm not putting my money where my mouth is, but that's a better price to pay than losing miserably to JE, which is likely.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Here's the question: If, by any fortuitous event, Edward or a staff member acquires obscure knowledge about an audience member, will he use it to make a spectacular hit?

I don't see why the hell not.

For number 4 - The magicians I have spoken to in regards to John Edward have said that plants in the audience are highly unlikely for two different reasons: You're giving up seats that people might actually purchase, and plants are not necessary. I can see John Edward filling his audience with plants for a show that was going to be televised, but this was, as I said, 150 people. Actually, I take it back. I can't see John Edward doing that for even a televised show, because video editing makes that pointless. In the end, the fewer people who know what trick you're pulling, the better. Having plants all over the place is bad for business.

I'm not convinced. You gotta get a few wild hits every now and again or people are going to lose interest.

~~ Paul

 

[RemieV]

You're supposed to divine what I meant by #6 (because I will never, ever, admit that I made a mistake and meant #4 and #5).

Regarding the rest, it's unclear, but I think you're missing the point. By my #5, I don't mean that anything was planned. There need not have been any mechanism in place to gather the information. It could simply have been that once-in-a-month-of-Sundays synchronicities that dropped the info into JE's lap and he capitalized.

Regarding the incident with the grieving parents of the drowned child, I would wager quite a bit that JE has simply become practiced and shrewd. He knows that taking the easy hit (at least too often) would have only a short term pay-off, but conspicuously passing it over for a harder hit will help in the long term. It is one of the reasons that I generally refuse to offer to go head-to-head with professional psychics like JE. Aside from their information-gathering infrastructure, they have far more experience than even the best mentalists, since such things are all that they do, and they do it a lot. Of course, that means it seems like I'm not putting my money where my mouth is, but that's a better price to pay than losing miserably to JE, which is likely.

Haha... no, I understood your meaning on 5. The only thing I said in response to 5 was, in fact, "I can see number 5 being true. Of the possibilities given, I find that the most likely."

The reason I followed it up with more stuff is because, even ignoring that one piece of information that fell into his lap, he is still giving a LOT of information. The reason I pinpointed a specific example (the first/middle name thing) is because it is the one absolute, solid, inarguable hit - and if I wanted the mechanism for EVERYthing Edward says, it seemed a good place to begin.

I know I am not supposed to give magic tricks away, so I won't go into this extensively, BUT... psychology as an explanation for a magic trick is largely just misdirection from how the trick is actually done. John Edward ain't no Sherlock Holmes.

 

[Garrette]

Haha... no, I understood your meaning on 5. The only thing I said in response to 5 was, in fact, "I can see number 5 being true. Of the possibilities given, I find that the most likely."

My bad. I missed that.

I know I am not supposed to give magic tricks away, so I won't go into this extensively, BUT... psychology as an explanation for a magic trick is largely just misdirection from how the trick is actually done. John Edward ain't no Sherlock Holmes.

I'm actually extremely knowledgeable on mentalism; I have a fairly professional library on it, and while I do not perform professionally, I do communicate with some professionals.

But I have consciously avoided tipping any methods, some of which apply. If you understand what I mean by PS work, then perhaps you will understand that a skilled performer (or skilled staff member of a performer) could get away with quite a lot without seeming to have done so.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I find this INCREDIBLY unlikely, simply because Vegas operates on discretion. People would quickly stop staying at the Flamingo if they knew that the staff was, in essence, spying upon them. This would be the equivalent of the staff of a strip club taking down license plate numbers from their parking lot and handing them over to a third party. Very very very bad for business.

I'm not talking about spying on people staying in the hotel, I'm talking about a barmaid noticing that the name someone told her was different to the name on his credit card and earning herself a little bit more on her wages by passing that information along.

Okay, here's another moment that was odd and stuck out. The second time I went to the show, there was a couple sitting in front of me. Their child had drowned, or had been drowned, by other children in some kind of prank gone wrong. These people were coated in photographs of said child doing all sorts of things, from sports to reading to bicycle riding. These were the perfect marks because they were visibly carrying everything required for a very convincing read. And they were in the front row, which meant that Edward had an excellent chance to see all of it.

Edward said something about the book 'The Giving Tree'. He said that someone in the room had a child for whom the book was very important. The couple in front of me immediately put their hands up to indicate they thought the reading was about them. John Edward said no, it wasn't a reading for them. He then continued to give details. The couple again put up their hands and said the reading was for them. Edward said no, it wasn't for them, and pointed toward the middle of the room at a different couple and said it was, in fact, for them. He then gave pretty detailed information.

What I mean is - the reading seemed to be tailored for particular people in the audience. He seemed to know in advance who he was going to talk to. For the life of me, I cannot figure out HOW.

One thing that's worth remembering is that there will most likely be in any audience people who have seen him before, maybe even many times. He can give them essentially the same reading every time and they'll still be impressed as if hearing it for the first time. That's how spiritualist churches keep their congregations happy. Without knowing any more about the couple he did give the reading to is there any reason to suppose that he didn't know them?

 

[RemieV]

My bad. I missed that.


I'm actually extremely knowledgeable on mentalism; I have a fairly professional library on it, and while I do not perform professionally, I do communicate with some professionals.

But I have consciously avoided tipping any methods, some of which apply. If you understand what I mean by PS work, then perhaps you will understand that a skilled performer (or skilled staff member of a performer) could get away with quite a lot without seeming to have done so.

Yes, I do know what you mean.

Well, I can't continue that line of discussion without giving it all away, now can I... Let me think... Ah well. PM it is.

 

[Apology]

Case solved then. Edward talks to ghosties!

The fact that you didn't read the OP doesn't mean that ghosts did it; it just means you're not very good at debunking.

If you'd read the OP, you'd know that RemieV ran the Million Dollar Challenge for the JREF for 3 years and isn't trying to show that Edwards talks to ghosts. She's trying to figure out how he did the trick. It's a good one, too; I know it was a trick, but I can't figure out how he did it either. Simple answers given without considering the information in the OP aren't going to answer this question. We aren't talking about some rube from Idaho that wants to believe in ghosts and John Edwards; we're talking about someone who was very highly placed at the JREF who can't figure out the trick and wants our ideas and input.

 

[RemieV]

I'm not talking about spying on people staying in the hotel, I'm talking about a barmaid noticing that the name someone told her was different to the name on his credit card and earning herself a little bit more on her wages by passing that information along.



One thing that's worth remembering is that there will most likely be in any audience people who have seen him before, maybe even many times. He can give them essentially the same reading every time and they'll still be impressed as if hearing it for the first time. That's how spiritualist churches keep their congregations happy. Without knowing any more about the couple he did give the reading to is there any reason to suppose that he didn't know them?

Hm. The reason I, at the time, didn't think that the couple knew Edward was because they seemed reticent to take the reading away from the other couple. They seemed LESS certain it was about them until rather far in.

Now, when I saw Van Praagh (who is so severely awful I can't believe people pay him money) it was a totally different kind of story. This was cold reading, no doubt. Van Praagh asked a LOT of questions (whereas Edward asked somewhere between very few and none). Whether the answer was 'yes' or 'no', he always followed it with "I knew that."

There was nothing comparable in Edward's readings.

 

[Skeptic Guy]

I think that Joshua Liam's recollection, as with us all, is not perfect. I think he said more than he remembers, either while waiting in line to get in, or once he was sitting at his table. Someone on JE's team heard this and got it back to JE, himself. As Garrette says, he took advantage of it.

But then again, I could be wrong.

And, yes, you suckered me into the thread because of your title of the OP. Naughty girl!

 

[River]

How about this. Have someone followed from the events parking area to their ticket seating. (identifies their seating area) Seems like a private investigator type of thing to me more than any special abilities.

 

[RemieV]

I think that Joshua Liam's recollection, as with us all, is not perfect. I think he said more than he remembers, either while waiting in line to get in, or once he was sitting at his table. Someone on JE's team heard this and got it back to JE, himself. As Garrette says, he took advantage of it.

But then again, I could be wrong.

And, yes, you suckered me into the thread because of your title of the OP. Naughty girl!

BAHAHAHA.

I have so far been completely unable to identify anyone as a John Edward staffer who wasn't marked as such. No one left the event early, no one seemed over-interested in anyone else or their story. If they're there, they're hiding well.

I suppose the only way I'm going to ever figure this out is to get a freakin' reading when I attend. So. Who wants to buy me forty John Edward tickets so I can be done with this?

How about this. Have someone followed from the events parking area to their ticket seating. (identifies their seating area) Seems like a private investigator type of thing to me more than any special abilities.

The Flamingo is a casino on the Strip. You're talking about an eight story parking garage that most of the attendees won't even be parked in because they parked at a different casino and walked. In order to do this, you'd need HUNDREDS of people.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I think that Joshua Liam's recollection, as with us all, is not perfect. I think he said more than he remembers, either while waiting in line to get in, or once he was sitting at his table. Someone on JE's team heard this and got it back to JE, himself. As Garrette says, he took advantage of it.

But then again, I could be wrong.

This is, of course, the problem. The information in this thread is 2nd or even 3rd hand and none of us can know what details could have been missed out. I mean, it sounds like a very impressive trick, and I'm sure it was, but without actually having been there all it's possible to do is throw out "have you thought of...?"s which probably aren't really much help.

If Edwards was doing all of this with great accuracy while hardly asking any questions then it has to be hot reading. Or supernatural powers. I know which one my money's on.

 

[RemieV]

This is, of course, the problem. The information in this thread is 2nd or even 3rd hand and none of us can know what details could have been missed out. I mean, it sounds like a very impressive trick, and I'm sure it was, but without actually having been there all it's possible to do is throw out "have you thought of...?"s which probably aren't really much help.

If Edwards was doing all of this with great accuracy while hardly asking any questions then it has to be hot reading. Or supernatural powers. I know which one my money's on.

They are an enormous help. It means that I will have a set list of things to be looking for the next time around, and that I will slowly be able to eliminate the possibilities. For instance, I had not considered WHY I didn't think the couple I talked about earlier didn't know Edward, but thinking it over has given me the reason. This is good.

I agree that it must either be hot reading or supernatural powers. I am simply trying to catch him with his hand in the cookie jar, so to speak, whether that cookie jar is full of dead people or plants.

 

[beren]

I spoke to Liam for about five minutes. He was from Canada, and was in town for only three days. He loved John Edward's television shows, and when he got into town and saw the billboards announcing that he would be giving a performance, Liam bought a ticket. He showed me the ticket. I was in the mid-range tier of tickets, and he was in the lowest tier. The ticket said he had paid cash - meaning that he was not comped in by a performer.

Just for clarification, did you ask to see his ticket, or did he volunteer it. It seems very odd to me that he would show it to you unprompted. What would be the point unless it was to plant information in your mind?

It also strikes me as odd/unlikely that the one person you talked to for so long, and the one person whose ticket you saw, was the one this super trick was performed on.

Unless I misread your narrative, my guess would be that your were targeted.

 

[RemieV]

Just for clarification, did you ask to see his ticket, or did he volunteer it. It seems very odd to me that he would show it to you unprompted. What would be the point unless it was to plant information in your mind?

It also strikes me as odd/unlikely that the one person you talked to for so long, and the one person whose ticket you saw, was the one this super trick was performed on.

Unless I misread your narrative, my guess would be that your were targeted.

I asked to see the ticket under the pretense of wanting to know if we were sitting near each other. In actuality, I just wanted to see the information printed on it.

 

[Lolly]

1. What does Liam do for a living?
2. How did you track him down?

Years ago, I worked for the telephone exchange, directory assistance. Someone rang up and said they wanted the home number for a real estate agent called X - but X wasn't his real name and he couldn't remember the guy's real name. I said "oh - Mr Hxxxxxxxx?" and looked up the number. This guy could have been similarly perplexed as to how I knew. Am I psychic?