9/11 Truthers on the left vs 9/11 Truthers on the right- which side is more vocal?

[Good Lt]

There are no wings. There are people who have power and people who give those people power. There are people who have and people who have not.

Therefore, 9-11 was an inside job or something.

Yes?

 

[Good Lt]

That's the point- but that escapes the Truthers- like most conspiracy nuts, they jetison logic in their reasoning.
After all, some right wing conspiracy nuts claim FDR caused the stock market crash of 1929- even though Herbert hoover was president at the time. Ditto with those who blame 9/11 on Bill Clinton.

Speaking as somebody who hung around a lot on these forums when the 9-11 Troof mvt. was in it's "heyday," it was primarily blamed on: George Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, a shadowy conglomerate of evil corporations, civic organizations and international financiers, the CIA, Condi Rice, the conservative group PNAC (Project for a New American Century), and a host of other individuals and groups.

Since Bush was in power and the GOP controlled the Congress (at least during 9-11 and until 2006) was in power in DC, the criticism focused primarily on the Bush Administration, conservatives, Republicans, "neocons" and the CIA. If there was a left-leaning target among the accused, it was probably the Council on Foreign Relations.

There were Democrat names tossed around in the conversations, but Bush/Cheney were the original and primary targets (and in the minds of the Troofers, the representatives of the NWO and the "conspiracy").

Notice that the movement has lost significant steam since A) Democrats wrested Congress form the GOP in 2006, and B) Obama won in 2008.

 

[Tinfoil Hater]

And also anti-homosexual. He thinks that homosexuals are the result of the government putting estrogen in our foods to turn guys "feminine."

Oh, and he thinks that his conspiracy theories were predicted in the Book of Revelations. (It's at the end of the video.)

At the start of the Twoofer Movement, the left-wingers were definitely more vocal, while the right-wingers were a weird anti-semitic paranoid minority. Now the right-wingers hold almost full sway in the Twoofer Movement and the left-wingers are a bunch of anti-capitalist vegetarian card-carrying PETA members with too much technology and time on their hands.

Jones sounds mentally ill. Either that, or he's just an a-hole...
Is he one of these nutters who thinks the addition of flouride to water is a communist plot?

 

[Scott Sommers]

the gun toting is just one issue.

My experience, from the one truther I have met, and the many I have seen on videos, interviewed, etc..., is that, at least for the angry young men, they tend to be liberals on social issues.

Not sure where they are on other issues...

TAM

Talking about this left/right issue of JREF is extremely difficult. This is not because the issue is not clear. It's because talking about politics on JREF is like hitting your head into the wall. While everyone agrees on Newton's Laws, when it comes to political/social issues, it's as bad as talking to the Truthers.

First, what do we mean by Left/Right? And what would make a 'left-wing' Truther? Do they have long hair and do drugs? Do they seem "pretty cool", as one member of JREF described to me in PM discussion of why Truthers are left? All of this has nothing to do with what I mean by Left/Right, nor does who they vote for. I'm not going to get into what I mean by the Right when say that 911 Truth is dominated by Right-Wing ideology. We can start a new thread somewhere else, but by then, I'm sure I'll have lost interest in this again.

Second, what do we mean by the Truth Movement or 911 Truth or 911 conspiracy? Are these the same terms? Do they refer to the same people? Everyone here knows that this 911 conspiracy-thing morphed dramatically after the President became a black Democrat. One aspect of this that never gets talked about here is that a whole lot of those Democrats have just disappeared. Josh Brolin, Sean Penn, Michael Moore and a host of other Hollywood Democrats seem to have forgotten they once had very strong opinions on this matter.

The 911 conspiracy-thing used to be made up of websites and on-line petitions. It used to involve people concerned almost exclusively with a 911 conspiracy. Take a look at old post on the major 911 websites. They are all only about a 911 conspiracy. There's none of his talk about a NWO government and no inks with an aspartame conspiracy. It's a very different thing now.

I keep reading on the JREF that 911 conspiracy is dead - or something like that. this is ridiculous. There are thousands and thousands of Americans and others who really truly accept that the US government exploded the WTC with thermite or the Death Star or with some exotic technology that only the Reptoids really control. They just don't have anything to do with the kind of 911 conspiracy-thing that JREF deals with. Those nut bars who attacked the Holocaust Museum, crashed a plane into the IRS building, and attacked the school board meeting in Florida were babbling about a 911 conspiracy. Has anyone ever seem them on 911 Lies? Of course not. They found about it on some Right Wing forum or through Facebook or just hanging out at the local Ron Paul office. The idea of this 911 conspiracy-thing does not travel through Left Wing counterculture networks anymore. It travels exclusively through Right Wing networks linking it with fluoride and the attack on home gardening.

Third, some of these so-called Left-Wing Truthers are still around. You still have the likes of Sander Hicks, Cynthia McKinney and Cindy Sheehan hanging around talking about how Bush exploded the WTC with thermite - or some other brain damaged idea. They are now all linked up with We Are Change. You can read more about this when Michael Shermer publishes my paper.

Let me repeat this. There is no way for Left Wing networks to promote this 911 conspiracy-thing. Why would there be? Obama's in the White House talking about health insurance. I keep getting told there are still "old hippies" left puking up 911 crap. This may be true. But they are increasingly being forced to deal with the Right in it's various forms.

Last point. The Right and 911 conspiracy-stuff may have a lot of stupid people involved, but it is an adaptive ideology. Their are members who recognize some segment of disaffected youth is susceptible to their message. Much of their message is morphed to appear more appealing to left-oriented youth who would never accept their ideology unless they were brought in one step at a time. Some critics have called this a rebranding of the Right or of Fascism. So you get these young kids in some 911 Truth-kind-of-thing who call themselves "radicals" and say they're all for "social change", but then they're hooked up with Gary Franchie and vote Ron Paul because he "supports liberty". But just because some 911 conspiracy kid calls himself an anarchist and advocates recreational use of LSD doesn't mean there are Left-Wing Truthers out there. A lot of this is some superficial costume put on by racist, fascist isolationists so they can look appealing to lost young kids.

Too tired...can't type anymore...My point is that the only form of growth available to 911 conspiracy-stuff is on the Right. You get Left-Wing dinosaurs who were so angry that even Obama's election couldn't calm them down. They're still around. But they're doing their yelling and screaming now with Nazis and racists and gun nuts.

 

[AnnoyingPony]

Jones sounds mentally ill. Either that, or he's just an a-hole...
Is he one of these nutters who thinks the addition of flouride to water is a communist plot?

Uh... yeah, he thinks the fluoride is put into the water by the eeeevil eugenicists who run the country.

Personally, I think his whole shtick is an act. He's doing it so he can sell products to panicking cultists... er, I mean fans. Just look at all the ads on his homepage and all the stuff he recommends buying on his show!

 

[njslim]

Most of the right (Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity, O Reilly) are violently anti truther
will have nothing to do with them or their nutty conspiracy theories. Beck "outed" Van Jones as a truther and got him bounced from Obama
inner circle. Also "outed" Debra Medina on his show as a truther - was in
primary for Texas governor.

Most ridicule truthers and their conspiracy madness

 

[Scott Sommers]

Most of the right (Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity, O Reilly) are violently anti truther
will have nothing to do with them or their nutty conspiracy theories. Beck "outed" Van Jones as a truther and got him bounced from Obama
inner circle. Also "outed" Debra Medina on his show as a truther - was in
primary for Texas governor.

Most ridicule truthers and their conspiracy madness

And the Leninist hated the Trotskyites and still do. This divide exists because this group is not right-wing enough. The rRght may be stupid, but it is very complicated and historically very twisted. The major issue is the attack on American culture. This has many interpretations. Beck believes there are shadowy forces afoot attacking the traditional way of life for the White peoples of the USA. These are typically globalized forces and generally come from outside the USA or at least from liberal America. Groups like We Are Change are willing to accept that not only are conservative Americans involved in the attack, so is the elected government.

Beck is just as messed up conspiracy-wise as any Truther. He just won't accept that the US government is involved in this struggle for the American way. Maybe it's based in evidence. Maybe it's an ideological thing. Who knows with the guy, since he's just as stupid as Luke Rudkowski. But you can think of this as all a matter of where they are on this dimension of who is attacking the American way of life.

 

[Good Lt]

And the Leninist hated the Trotskyites and still do. This divide exists because this group is not right-wing enough. The rRght may be stupid, but it is very complicated and historically very twisted. The major issue is the attack on American culture. This has many interpretations. Beck believes there are shadowy forces afoot attacking the traditional way of life for the White peoples of the USA. These are typically globalized forces and generally come from outside the USA or at least from liberal America. Groups like We Are Change are willing to accept that not only are conservative Americans involved in the attack, so is the elected government.

Beck is just as messed up conspiracy-wise as any Truther. He just won't accept that the US government is involved in this struggle for the American way. Maybe it's based in evidence. Maybe it's an ideological thing. Who knows with the guy, since he's just as stupid as Luke Rudkowski. But you can think of this as all a matter of where they are on this dimension of who is attacking the American way of life.

Again, the original targets of 9-11 Troof were Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, PNAC and a host of other conservative groups, with an occasional CFR and CIA thrown in for good measure.

The attack was essentially blamed on members of the right, directly or indirectly. People who blamed it on members of the political left or blamed it on Democrats asserted that they were responsible for creating the conditions that allowed for the attack (ie, hampered communications between national security agencies, were generally "weak" on terrorism throughout the 1990s, etc). At no time did anybody on the right assert that Democrats orchestrated or "allowed to happen on purpose" the 9-11 attacks.

It seems (I could be wrong) that you're trying in vain to assert that 9-11 Troof is somehow primarily "right wing" phenomenon or an outgrowth of right wing fringe groups and that Troofers dismiss mainstream conservatives as "not right wing enough." This isn't the case.

The 9-11 Troof conspiracy crowd is a multifacted movement of crackpots, left-wingers, right-wingers, nutters, haters, paranoiacs, misguided teenagers, drug addicts, aging hipsters, militia-types, and others that share one thing in common - they believe that the US government under George W. Bush orchestrated a false-flag attack on Sept. 11 (or at the very least let it happen on purpose) for the purposes of creating a pretext for invading Iraq/going to the Middle Ease for oil/justifying greater intrusion into private lives domestically/etc.

 

[Tinfoil Hater]

Almost all the truthers I've "met" have been right-wing loonies. I've met only 1 anarchist and 1 communist in my internet travels. But it should be pointed out again that crazy is bipartisan.

Most of the Youtube Truthers I've seen seem to be of the far left variety that think Bush & Cheney were behind 9/11.

 

[Scott Sommers]

Again, the original targets of 9-11 Troof were Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, PNAC and a host of other conservative groups, with an occasional CFR and CIA thrown in for good measure.

The attack was essentially blamed on members of the right, directly or indirectly. People who blamed it on members of the political left or blamed it on Democrats asserted that they were responsible for creating the conditions that allowed for the attack (ie, hampered communications between national security agencies, were generally "weak" on terrorism throughout the 1990s, etc). At no time did anybody on the right assert that Democrats orchestrated or "allowed to happen on purpose" the 9-11 attacks.

It seems (I could be wrong) that you're trying in vain to assert that 9-11 Troof is somehow primarily "right wing" phenomenon or an outgrowth of right wing fringe groups and that Troofers dismiss mainstream conservatives as "not right wing enough." This isn't the case.

The 9-11 Troof conspiracy crowd is a multifacted movement of crackpots, left-wingers, right-wingers, nutters, haters, paranoiacs, misguided teenagers, drug addicts, aging hipsters, militia-types, and others that share one thing in common - they believe that the US government under George W. Bush orchestrated a false-flag attack on Sept. 11 (or at the very least let it happen on purpose) for the purposes of creating a pretext for invading Iraq/going to the Middle Ease for oil/justifying greater intrusion into private lives domestically/etc.

This point is quite similar to many answers I have gotten in the past on JREF. I think it misses what my point is about. The historical aspect of growth in this 911 conspiracy-type-thing is interesting and illuminating, but not related to what I am saying here. This 911 conspiracy-type-thing is only experiencing growth on the Right.

It doesn't matter what reason drew someone into the 911TM, the groups and ideologies they end up discussing are part of are now driven by a Right-Wing agenda. If you talk with Sander Hicks, he's an old hippie-sort-of-guy. But when Hicks wants to start a political party based on something about 911 Truth (he calls it the Truth Party), he has to call on Luke Rudkowski and We Are Change to even hold an inaugural event. Cynthia McKinney may have been a member of the Democrats, but she now has to stand on a stage and tell people what a great guy Luke is and how wonderful the work WAC is doing, even though prominent members of WAC openly advocate separating the USA into zones of habitation based on 'ethnic differences' and WAC is aligned with white patriot groups.

Sure there are hippies and dope heads and all sorts of people attached to this 911-conspiracy-thing. We just had Tracy Blevins here arguing for no planes on 911, as well as open sex and doobies for everyone. But she has no ability to organize or recruit members or anything except post on JREF. Her whole idea of 'evidence' and 'research' is showing off a rock she found in an abandoned building at a coffee shop somewhere. She's not part of any movement at all and has no ability to speak for anyone. Luke Rudkowski and his gang, on the other hand, have networks that reach in the world of right-wing militias and other anti-government reactionary groups.

 

[Myron Proudfoot]

FWIW, the first "truther" I met was a Bircher who blamed 9/11 on Greenpeace...

 

[Scott Sommers]

Most of the Youtube Truthers I've seen seem to be of the far left variety that think Bush & Cheney were behind 9/11.

This is a very strange argument equating the Republican Party with the Right. Clearly that's not true. Clearly there are people so right wing the Republicans and Democrats seem to be the same thing.

 

[Good Lt]

This point is quite similar to many answers I have gotten in the past on JREF. I think it misses what my point is about. The historical aspect of growth in this 911 conspiracy-type-thing is interesting and illuminating, but not related to what I am saying here. This 911 conspiracy-type-thing is only experiencing growth on the Right.

It doesn't matter what reason drew someone into the 911TM, the groups and ideologies they end up discussing are part of are now driven by a Right-Wing agenda. If you talk with Sander Hicks, he's an old hippie-sort-of-guy. But when Hicks wants to start a political party based on something about 911 Truth (he calls it the Truth Party), he has to call on Luke Rudkowski and We Are Change to even hold an inaugural event. Cynthia McKinney may have been a member of the Democrats, but she now has to stand on a stage and tell people what a great guy Luke is and how wonderful the work WAC is doing, even though prominent members of WAC openly advocate separating the USA into zones of habitation based on 'ethnic differences' and WAC is aligned with white patriot groups.

Sure there are hippies and dope heads and all sorts of people attached to this 911-conspiracy-thing. We just had Tracy Blevins here arguing for no planes on 911, as well as open sex and doobies for everyone. But she has no ability to organize or recruit members or anything except post on JREF. Her whole idea of 'evidence' and 'research' is showing off a rock she found in an abandoned building at a coffee shop somewhere. She's not part of any movement at all and has no ability to speak for anyone. Luke Rudkowski and his gang, on the other hand, have networks that reach in the world of right-wing militias and other anti-government reactionary groups.

So which right wing groups are pushing 9-11 Truth in 2011? Name some names.

You seem to be trying to implicate the current Birther/Bircher fringe political right for something regarding 9-11 Troof ("recruiting" for 9-11 Truth/using "networks" for spreading the conspiracy), but I'm not sure this is happening at all.

I'm telling you that as far as 9-11 Troof goes, it started out and came to prominence (generally) as a cause celebre for the fringy left, lost steam as time went on (and after Democrats regained political footing) and most of the tangentially curious "just asking questions" crowd moved onto other, more sane things to criticize the Bush Admin for. It's now just left as a hulk of true believers and assorted nutburgers who really can't be pigeonholed politically.

If more mainstream Democrat/leftish types had any interest in 9-11 Troof to begin with, it was strictly a "get Bush/Cheney" thing. And most of them even realized immediately that the whole movement and "theory" itself was stupid as all heck.

The reason you're getting this answer all over JREF when you ask about this is because that's pretty much the way it unfolded.

 

[Good Lt]

FWIW, the first "truther" I met was a Bircher who blamed 9/11 on Greenpeace...

The first Truther I met IRL was a fringy lefty who thinks that the GOP is a Christian fascist party trying to rule the Earth, and who equated Bush with the Anti-Christ.

Guess our anecdotes canceled out Kind of why I'm making it a point to stop trying to blame a political party or political stripe for the absolute idiocy a bunch of nuts come up with to explain complicated geopolitical events.

Both sides have their fringy nuts. Look at the Birthers. Or those idiots that sail around attacking Japanese whaling ships.

 

[JackDaniels]

The first Truther I met IRL was a fringy lefty who thinks that the GOP is a Christian fascist party ...

The GOP vice-presidential candidate of 2008 once described the war in Iraq as "a task from God". There is a disturbingly large faction in that party that could be termed Christo-fascist.

 

[dudalb]

THe Truth Movement does have a lot of followers in the Birch Society wing of the Right..those who think that the Bush Adminstration was just a tool of the evil Zionist/One Worlders to carry out their aims under a conservative cover. See Alex Jones for an example of this.
But, Yeah, during the Bush years a majority of the more vocal Truthers were on the militant left.
Fact is, for many COnspiracy Theorists, the important thing is not what your political beliefts are, but believing in a massive conspriacy. It is amazing how often CTers of the left or right who you think would rip each other to pieces get along just fine because both blame a vast international plot for all the world's problems.

 

[Tinfoil Hater]

This is a very strange argument equating the Republican Party with the Right. Clearly that's not true. Clearly there are people so right wing the Republicans and Democrats seem to be the same thing.

are you kidding me? The Republican party has shifted to the extreme right wing- their perpetual gay bashing, pandering to corporate interests and the Christian nutcases put them on the extreme right wing
Democrats are on the left- they are pro unions, for gay rights, pro socialized programs, for the workers-
The irony is if Obama is anything he's a centrist- hardly the 'radical left wing socialist, communist Marxist' that righty Glenn Beck and his dumbass wingnut followers claim him to be..
Spare me the meme that they are one in the same.
Do you also think they are controlled by some shadow government?

 

[Tinfoil Hater]

The first Truther I met IRL was a fringy lefty who thinks that the GOP is a Christian fascist party trying to rule the Earth, and who equated Bush with the Anti-Christ.

Guess our anecdotes canceled out Kind of why I'm making it a point to stop trying to blame a political party or political stripe for the absolute idiocy a bunch of nuts come up with to explain complicated geopolitical events.

Both sides have their fringy nuts. Look at the Birthers. Or those idiots that sail around attacking Japanese whaling ships.

Birthers, end of timers, evolution and global warming deniars are right wing religious crackpots, no different than 9/11 Truthers in their failure to grasp reality. The Greenpeace zealots are out there, but their numbers are are not that large. There are many 9/11 Trutherbots on the left and right.

The right wing Christan crackpots who insist there is no seperatation of church and state want their false religion to become the law of the land. That's why they want to take away a woman's reproductive rights, deny gays any rights, and rewrite schoolbooks to reflect their propaganda. Religion by it's very nature is right wing and authoritarian, and all roads from theocracy lead to fascism.
I've never met a person on the left demand that I pray to their imaginary friend Jesus, but that is all I hear from the right.

 

[Scott Sommers]

So which right wing groups are pushing 9-11 Truth in 2011? Name some names.

You seem to be trying to implicate the current Birther/Bircher fringe political right for something regarding 9-11 Troof ("recruiting" for 9-11 Truth/using "networks" for spreading the conspiracy), but I'm not sure this is happening at all.

Maybe I'm saying this very clearly. It is not that some Right-Wing group claims 911 conspiracy-stuff as its belief system. Did I say that? My point is that 911 conspiracy-type-stuff appears as a belief along with other Right-Wing beliefs and not with Left Wing beliefs. There would be thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of Americans involved right now in this belief system. These would be people who support gun ownership, oppose the use any language other than English in the political USA, oppose the immigration of citizens of poor nations to the USA, etc., etc., etc.

We Are Change is the only group influential enough to mount a 911 Truth demonstration. Their belief system is tied very closely with an anti-immigration, anti-welfare, isolationist position. There is no major figure promoting a 911 conspiracy who comes from the Left who is not now aligned with WAC. WAC is in turn, aligned with white patriot and neo-fascists groups in a very public and open manner. There are many people who have or still do vote Obama or Ralph Nader or whatever who believe in a 911 conspiracy. They have no organization and as much as they are part of one, that group has a Right-Wing agenda.

Let me give you an example of what I mean. A while back, there was a video of a reasonably attractive white woman standing on the side of road yelling 911 conspiracy-type-stuff at cars. Her name is Brooke Kelley, AKA the Truth Fairy. On her Facebook, she states,

have been an activist since the age of five. starting with world hunger and homelessness being my number one goal to fix. then to animal testing in middle school where i saw the pain in the eyes of the dying rabbit, and educated my peers about solutions. ...blah, blah, blah

Back in the 60s, she might have joined SDS. But now, she's hooked up with We Are Change LA whose member Bruno Bruhwiler, also a member of white patriot groups, is now awaiting trial on charges of terrorism. She boasts on Facebook that she works with Gary Franchie, who warns people that FEMA runs death camps and that flouride is toxic. She is all tied up with the so-called liberty movement and is an avid supporter of Ron Paul. She supports the Teaparty Movement and has tried to join the American Daughters of Liberty, but they kicked her out because she's a Truther. But obviously, she thinks she shares a political agenda with these groups.

Is Brooke on the Left or on the Right? I'd say that whatever label she gives herself is no longer relevant. She works for people who support a Right-Wing agenda for the USA. These people are so far out on the Right, they think the US government openly murders people.

I'm telling you that as far as 9-11 Troof goes, it started out and came to prominence (generally) as a cause celebre for the fringy left, lost steam as time went on (and after Democrats regained political footing) and most of the tangentially curious "just asking questions" crowd moved onto other, more sane things to criticize the Bush Admin for. It's now just left as a hulk of true believers and assorted nutburgers who really can't be pigeonholed politically.

If more mainstream Democrat/leftish types had any interest in 9-11 Troof to begin with, it was strictly a "get Bush/Cheney" thing. And most of them even realized immediately that the whole movement and "theory" itself was stupid as all heck.

I agree with you completely. Things have changed since then.

The reason you're getting this answer all over JREF when you ask about this is because that's pretty much the way it unfolded.

But this is not the answer I get "all over JREF", as some of the comments here show. It is the experience of many members here. The problem I was referring to earlier is that in spite of my arguments and the opinions of numerous members, there is a group that absolutely refuses to accept this could be the case. And, much like Truthers, they refuse to sit down on this. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, of the group here discussing this right now, you're the only one who seems to have major trouble with the idea.

Did I say this was the answer I'm getting "all over JREF"? I'm quite sure I didn't, but you might want to reread my original post.

I hope this answers your questions.

 

[Good Lt]

I've never met a person on the left demand that I pray to their imaginary friend Jesus, but that is all I hear from the right.

Anecdotally, I traffic with a lot of righties (most are Christians) and lefties, and I've never been asked to pray to Jesus by any of them. At least not explicitly.

I fully agree that their religious views should be confined to their personal lives and/or respective houses of worship and not forced into school science cirricula, public policy, etc. And I also agree that the more they're told this, the harder they try to force them on society writ large. Not a good thing.

And for this, I have been pretty regularly trashed by my online righty friends and have drawn considerable ire in some quarters where I hang around. Not a big deal - facts of reality are facts of reality.

But I don't think I'm alone here on the center-right areligious side of the dial. At least, I hope I'm not alone.

And hence, I'm trying to help people here and elsewhere make distinctions between the various stripes of the right. The stripe you're talking to is a large group - too large for comfort sometimes - but it is by no means the only one.

Of course, this is all kind of OT, so I guess I"ll leave it there.