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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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What are you stuck on here?

He was not/ is not a member of the Italian judiciary.

We're talking about the criminal and constitutional laws of the nation state known as Italy.

Not 'church law'/ matters of faith!

Yes, I've acknowledged already that Neri handles church-related trials. I still don't see how that diminishes his statement. Now, from what I can tell, the presumption of innocence does exist in Italy by law, but the way it is handled is very loose compared to other countries. Some of this stems from the ability to imprison people for years before ever being charged with a crime - as happened in this case (apparently Italy has the highest percentage of doing this).
 
I don't think I'll be posting my CV where the guy who has already been suspended once for attempting to stalk and harass people participating in this discussion can see it. That wouldn't be very rational..

I was suspended?
 
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What are you stuck on here?

He was not/ is not a member of the Italian judiciary.

We're talking about the criminal and constitutional laws of the nation state known as Italy.

Not 'church law'/ matters of faith!


It is not necessarily true that Count Neri Capponi is not a member of the Italian judiciary. Some canon lawyers have secular law degrees as well. In the Vatican, ecclesiastical law is the law of the land. The process of becoming an ecclesiastical lawyer is a rigorous one, and I can't imagine an ecclesiastical lawyer in Italy not finding it in his best interest to familiarize himself with Italian law as a whole.

Judge Capponi seems to have been speaking as an observer, anyway, not as a magistrate. No doubt there are many journalists and other commentators in Italy who have not studied the law at all who would make exactly the same observation. As Malkmus said, Capponi's prediction was correct.
 
Hi Mary H,
I was reading something on page in a book called "Angel Face" that Barbie Nadeau authored that caught my eye about how smart Stefanoni might be:

"She has long finger nails, doesn't she?" asked Stefanoni, examining Meredith's hand.
She has medium long fingernails, corrected the officer.


Here's a female ERT expert that is collecting evidence and can not even tell the difference between medium long and long fingernails?
Does anybody have a link to a photo of this?
I'm curious to see these medium long, not long, fingernails...
RWVBWL


Way back at the beginning, it was reported that Meredith had very short fingernails. That was part of the explanation about her clutching the perp's hair in her fist, but not having any DNA under her nails. Who knows what the real story is? The exchange you quoted sounds to me like a set-up for something; otherwise, why is it even included in the book?

PS-On the previous right side page, #47, of "Angel Face" I read this:
"This was cut right off her body, Stefanoni said, shaking her head.
"Imagine. And look, we're missing a piece of the bra clasp."

It's kind of strange to think that after saying this, she did not decide to collect this bra clasp when it was found afterwards lying underneath the pillow that was shoved underneath Meredith's hips.
When Stefanoni became an expert, did she graduate at the top of her class?
Hmmm, I wonder...


Yes, it's very strange, but on the other hand, you never know what Barbie invented or what Patti actually said. How dumb is it to make up those conversations, anyway? Does anybody really believe that if Patti were recounting what she had said at the crime scene, she would put it that way?

Patti: "So then, Barbie, I shook my head, and said, 'Imagine.'"
 
...To recap, you have made a slightly vague assertion that rather than discern and utilise logical relationships between various claims involved in a criminal case, like "If Stefan Kiszko cannot produce sperm he cannot be the murderer", that the correct cognitive procedure is to toss all the evidence together into a pot and see where it generally points overall...

That was not my assertion. I do not reject the notion that one ought to "discern and utilise logical relationships between [the] various claims involved in a criminal case." Nor am I endorsing the result in the "Kiszko" case.

I am taking issue with your penchant for evaluating one piece of evidence in the abstract, isolated/ divorced from the larger context in which it occurs, and in willful ignorance of the remaining pieces of inculpatory evidence.

Perhaps the fantasy of discovering the 'lynchpin that no one else saw' can tempt even the best 'trained thinker' into making over-simplifications that defy common sense...
 
That was not my assertion. I do not reject the notion that one ought to "discern and utilise logical relationships between [the] various claims involved in a criminal case." Nor am I endorsing the result in the "Kiszko" case.

I am taking issue with your penchant for evaluating one piece of evidence in the abstract, isolated/ divorced from the larger context in which it occurs, and in willful ignorance of the remaining pieces of inculpatory evidence.

Well now you have clarified what you are trying to argue for, what is your actual argument for it?

I'm pretty sure I have not "evaluated one piece of evidence in the abstract", and in fact I'm pretty sure that the only people who have claimed that in the past were PMF posters wilfully distorting my points on their private forum. These were the people who, if you recall, somehow managed to agree amongst themselves that citing peer-reviewed scientific literature to demonstrate that the autopsy evidence provided an upper bound to the time of death, and citing Meredith's friends testimony to provide a lower bound to the time of death, was "Google and Youtube" and "impossible" and "anti-science" and "basing a TOD solely on bowel contents".

What I have done is identify the salient points that have hard evidence to back them up and decisive consequences from the case, and explore the logical consequences of the facts as we know them.

If you think you can show otherwise then by all means show your work. Or show us a coherent theory of the crime that fits with the facts as we now know them and has Knox and Sollecito involved in the murder, if you've got one.

Perhaps the fantasy of discovering the 'lynchpin that no one else saw' can tempt even the best 'trained thinker' into making over-simplifications that defy common sense...

This too is a very strange PMF talking point with no basis in reality. I'd avoid repeating it if you want to be seen as participating in an evidence-based discussion.

For a while they latched on to the talking point "Kevin can't possibly be right, because if he is right then he is smarter than us the appeals team! That cannot possibly be the case because... well, because. Therefore we don't even need to discuss or understand what he is saying! Yay! Off the hook!". The fact that exactly this argument could apply to absolutely any ideas about the case other than those of the lawyers on either side didn't occur to them, I guess.

However they stopped running that line when it became manifestly clear that the appeals team, without any prompting from JREF posters whatsoever, was boring right in on the time of death, the irregularities with the collection and interpretation of the DNA evidence, the computer evidence and the other salient points we had identified here. It's no surprise to me that competent defence lawyers see the same problems in the prosecution case when they examine it that we do, but it caught the PMF contingent by surprise. Go figure.

So the idea that hubris somehow led me to think I'd single-handedly cracked the case when nobody else could is frankly bizarre. If you search you'll see I've been quite consistent in saying that any rational and scientifically literate person would come to the same conclusions I do and that there was never any need at all for me to fly on wings of gold to Perugia to save the day with my expertise. As far as I can tell the appeals team and the JREF rationalists have been racing down the same trails the whole time.

The PMFers have an unsavoury habit of caricaturing anyone who disagrees with them, whipping themselves up into mob hatred of that caricature, believing their caricature is the real thing and then harassing and stalking the people in question. The idea that I've put myself up on some kind of pedestal as the world's only rationalist is purely a part of that caricature, and I'd appreciate it if you engaged with Kevin the actual person not Kevin the PMFer's caricature or your best guess at who Kevin is based on your attempts at Google-stalking me.
 
While I think of it, a New Year's challenge for the-community-who-prefer-not-to-be-referred-to-as-guilters.

The standing challenge to come up with a theory of the crime that fits the facts as we know them, has Knox and Sollecito murdering Meredith Kercher and isn't incredibly implausible still stands, but inspired by Alt+F4's personal opinion on the three silliest arguments of the year here's a bonus:

If you reckon that objective, verified evidence of human interaction with Raffaele's laptop from ~9pm to ~6am only provides an alibi for one person (Alt+F4 for one believes that this is a great shaft of insight), then surely you have a coherent theory of the crime that fits with the facts as we know them, has Raffaele or Amanda murdering Meredith, and fits with the computer evidence, right? I'd like to hear Alt+F4's theory, but everyone else is welcome to pitch in and help her.

Who killed Meredith, and when, and why, if someone was using Raffaele's computer from ~9pm to ~6am, and Meredith died between ~9pm and ~9:30pm? Who broke into the house, or staged a break-in, and why and how and when?
 
Amanda's apology

Hi RWVBWL.

Off the top of my head, my first guess would be your "sources" are the reason for their skepticism.

Do you have any legitimate sources reporting that there was an "apology"?



PS Why do you suppose Amanda would "apologize" if, in fact, it wasn't her fault on account of having been "brain-washed"/ coerced?

PPS Why do you suppose Amanda would write anything in a 'prison journal' after her lawyers instructed her not to do so?

The right to silence is arguably an accused's greatest 'weapon' against the state, why would she toss it away? Mmmmmm...

treehorn,

You might want to consult the previous thread and look under BobTheDonkey. He at least admitted that the apology occurred, but he criticized the exact wording. I found his argument to be unconvincing, but yours is simply not in accord with the facts and criticizing Frank's reporting is unfounded, Was he not in court? Does he not speak Italian? Are these not two criteria you value?

With respect to your PS, I would say that Amanda's assessment of blame is different from mine. She may partly blame herself; I put most of the blame on ILE. Judge Matteini let a card slip from her hand when she essentially admitted that Amanda was interrogated intentionally prior to her mother's arrival in Perugia on 6 November. Dr. Giobbi was mathematically certain that he gave the order to bring them both in. Although I recognize that Amanda felt it was necessary to apologize to Patrick again earlier this month, I think that it muddies the water with respect to who is really at fault.
 
Has anyone contacted David John Oates to see if he would be interested in doing a reverse-speech analysis of Amanda's testimony? I heard him explain his methodology on a highly regarded radio program some years back.

He might be able to shed some new light where it is needed most.
"Reverse speech"?
Do you think perhaps that if we read her words backwards they will become more truthful?
 
While I think of it, a New Year's challenge for the-community-who-prefer-not-to-be-referred-to-as-guilters.

The standing challenge to come up with a theory of the crime that fits the facts as we know them, has Knox and Sollecito murdering Meredith Kercher and isn't incredibly implausible still stands, but inspired by Alt+F4's personal opinion on the three silliest arguments of the year here's a bonus:

If you reckon that objective, verified evidence of human interaction with Raffaele's laptop from ~9pm to ~6am only provides an alibi for one person (Alt+F4 for one believes that this is a great shaft of insight), then surely you have a coherent theory of the crime that fits with the facts as we know them, has Raffaele or Amanda murdering Meredith, and fits with the computer evidence, right? I'd like to hear Alt+F4's theory, but everyone else is welcome to pitch in and help her.

Who killed Meredith, and when, and why, if someone was using Raffaele's computer from ~9pm to ~6am, and Meredith died between ~9pm and ~9:30pm? Who broke into the house, or staged a break-in, and why and how and when?
So far the defense is CLAIMING that Sollecito was on the computer all night.
Funny, neither he nor amanda ever claimed that as their alibi.
Once that is disproved, they will be left with only their original- multiple- alibis.
Only a very desperate defense would try such a tenuous track, sure to be disproved.Not worth going up that road, in my opinion.
 
While I think of it, a New Year's challenge for the-community-who-prefer-not-to-be-referred-to-as-guilters.

The standing challenge to come up with a theory of the crime that fits the facts as we know them, has Knox and Sollecito murdering Meredith Kercher and isn't incredibly implausible still stands, but inspired by Alt+F4's personal opinion on the three silliest arguments of the year here's a bonus:

If you reckon that objective, verified evidence of human interaction with Raffaele's laptop from ~9pm to ~6am only provides an alibi for one person (Alt+F4 for one believes that this is a great shaft of insight), then surely you have a coherent theory of the crime that fits with the facts as we know them, has Raffaele or Amanda murdering Meredith, and fits with the computer evidence, right? I'd like to hear Alt+F4's theory, but everyone else is welcome to pitch in and help her.

Who killed Meredith, and when, and why, if someone was using Raffaele's computer from ~9pm to ~6am, and Meredith died between ~9pm and ~9:30pm? Who broke into the house, or staged a break-in, and why and how and when?
It was never proven that Meredith died between 9 and 9:30; in the report she is estimated to have died much later in the evening.

But I guess the reported findings don't count for much for you.
 
Brilliant post. Anyone who is unclear about how Rafaelle and Amanda got where they are today needs to read this. Can you imagine being questioned in this manner while under the effects of marijuana (Rafaelle and possibly Amanda), in a language of which you are not a native speaker (Amanda), for hour after hour?
I asume amanda understood the question "Where were you that night".
Not much room for her misunderstanding that question, ESPECIALLY as there was an interpreter present from the very beginning.
Marijuana doesn't render one aan uncomprehending idiot. YOu really ought to ask someone who has used it.
Anyway how do you know the lovebirds were stoned at the police station? Did they walk around perpetually stoned?
 
How would you know?

Yes, how would I know? After all, the law is an arcane, impenetrable secret society, which is completely inaccessible and incomprehensible to the uninitiated, isn't it?

But since you asked, perhaps you could point out which parts of my posts about intent / mens rea were incorrect......?
 
I wonder if John Kercher and the rest of the Kercher family had to wait until the PMF translation before they could read Massei's motivations report? Or isn't it just slightly possible that either Maresca - or the court itself, or even the British Embassy - arranged for the report to be translated into English shortly after its release in March, so that the victim's family could read and understand the judges' reasoning? Just sayin'....
The point of your speculation being---?
 
I'm sure the family did have to wait for the PMF Gold Edition, John. Just don't tell that to Yummi:
Yummi is saying that the family read the report most thoroughly and takes its words to heart.
He never said the Kerchers saw the report before anyone else.
 
Hi Treehorn,
How's it going? Good I hope!
So check this out. I was reading a little about a diary that Amanda Knox had written in while in prison back in Nov. 2007. Just after she had finished writing in it again, the police came into her cell and took this diary from her on Nov. 29, 2007.

What she had written was that she had 3 goals for her court appearance the next day, Nov. 30, 2007.
1) She wanted to confirm the memoriale the she had written on Nov. 6th, expressing doubt about the Patrick story.
2) To tell the judges that she was "SURE" that she was not there when Meredith Kercher died.
3) To assure them she'd only named Patrick Lumumba because "I was stressed and pressured by the police. They brainwashed me."*

For some reason, I don't think that Amanda Knox had ever seen that PBS Frontline piece on the 'Norfolk Four',
yet she is writing of being"brainwashed" by the pressure of the police.
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

ADD IN:
Interestingly, when court was over the next day, a person who attended the hearing had this to say:
"She proclaimed her innocence and to convince the court, she used tears, the weapon of talent. She claimed she'd spent the night at Raffaele's place. She also apologized to Patrick. The scene was beautiful, but the judges didn't burst into applause."
Author: Frank Sfarzo of Perugia Shock

How come pro-guilt believers constantly say that she did not apologize to Patrick?
It seems that Amanda Knox did so waaaay back on Nov. 30, 2007...
Correct?

*Ref: Page 230+231, Murder in Italy, Author-Candace Dempsey
Incorrect.
She NEVER apologized to Patrick until this Dec. at her appeal.
 
Talking of that fine website devoted to a balanced, rational discussion of the Kercher case, PMF: its "co-head-honcho", Michael, wrote a response yesterday to something that I'd posted on JREF, and I thought I'd like to offer a counter-reply since I was simultaneously amused and amazed at his "logic".

My original post is here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6678788&postcount=22083

(It was posted back on 20th December, so I'm guessing that Michal might be a slow reader...)

And Michael's response is this:

Priceless. For once windbag John has posted something useful. Here he's answered his (and that of his fellow parasites) own question of why the blood test on the knife was negative. He argues one requires as little as fifty blood cells to render a positive blood test. But of course he doesn't know jack about this case, for if he did he would also know that the amount of cells in the material in the knife scratch numbered less then ten, of which only 20% was given over for a blood test, which would have equated to as little as zero and at maximum only two to three cells! Therefore, the material on the blade cannot be ruled out as being blood. So, next time a FOAKer you happen to be debating with declares the material on the knife wasn't blood because the blood test proved negative, you now have the answer for them, all courtesy of the Great JREF Windbag himself

Now, personal insults aside, Michael seems to have a fundamental misunderstanding of blood and DNA. This is a very important point in relation to this case: if Michal's answer were correct, then the DNA result from the knife might make some sense. But fortunately he's wrong, and the DNA result makes no sense.

Here's why he's wrong: he seems to be under the impression that human blood is composed of "blood cells", all of which are essentially the same as each other. But human blood is in fact a "soup" containing may different constituent elements. The two most prevalent elements are red blood cells (or erythrocytes) and white blood cells.

Now for the important "science" part:

1) White blood cells contain DNA, but red blood cells do not
2) For every white blood cell in human blood, there are around 800-1000 red blood cells


Next, remember that red blood cells are the ones needed for presumptive tests for blood (such as TMB or Luminol). And white blood cells are needed for DNA testing.

So....if the knife had Meredith's DNA on it, let's suppose for a moment that it came from her blood. Therefore the DNA would have had to come from a white blood cell (or cells). But even if there were only ONE white blood cell on the knife (unlikely to give a positive DNA result, but let's run with it in a "reductio ad absurdum" argument), then statistically there ought to have been 800-1000 red blood cells also present (to preserve the proper relative proportions of human blood). And if there were 800-1000 red blood cells on the knife (and remember, this is based on there only being ONE DNA-containing white blood cell being present), then a presumptive test for blood - which requires only around 30-50 red blood cells to produce a positive result - would have been positive. But the blood test came back negative. Therefore the DNA on that knife did not come from a deposit of Meredith's blood on the blade.

And this is also why every medical/forensic text book says - with confidence - that (in the absence of a few very specific mitigating factors such as intense heat or fire) if a presumptive blood test on an unidentified spot or stain comes back negative, then it's not worth doing a DNA test. If there are not enough red blood cells for a positive blood test, then there are assuredly not enough white blood cells for a positive DNA test.

So, next time a person-who-believes-that-Knox_and-Sollecito-were-correctly-and-safely-convicted you happen to be debating with declares the material on the knife might have been blood despite the fact that the blood test proved negative, you now have the answer for them, all courtesy of the Great JREF Windbag himself :D
 
And I have yet to see YOUR counter argument in respect of Knox's "ticket."

Before you work on that, however, perhaps you could share your understanding of Kevin's "analogy" with us:

1) Which parts of the fact pattern in this case are analogous to the "crap" (to borrow his phrase)?

2) Which parts of the fact pattern in this case are analogous to the "horse"?

Knox got a ticket, treehorn. That would appear to me to be a fact the vast majority here agree on, but it is unfortunate that you don't. Feel free to continue your campaign of convincement otherwise, at this point it seems to be having little success but who knows what the future holds.

I thought Kevin's reference to the prosecution evidence as horse-crap somewhat humorous and apropos. My only question is why he didn't cross reference this to his famous Zebra posts with a distinction made between Horse and Zebra excrement. There should be a hat in the analogy as well.
I hope he will forgive me for being critical.
 
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