Health care - administrative incompetence

Before i joined this place i wouldn't have believed you, but surely that can't be it? It must rip the heart from the dr. as well to be fair.

It's been known to happen. I certainly believe him when he was essentially told to "have a nice death". Often times hospitals will discharge people with serious illnesses (that aren't life threatening right that minute) with "Aspirin". My guess is the hospitalist has learned to shrug off such cases (since it's a rather regular occurrence for hospitals).
 
My goodness, reading comprehension certainly isn't your strong point:
And impartiality is certainly not yours.

The first article you cite, from the IEA healthcare unit, is 10 years old and prior to major increases in NHS funding. You have been told this already. Incidentally the IEA is on the right wing free-market fringe, so forgive me for not counting it as an impartial authority on the matter.
Ah, you don't agree with their politics so they are liars. Got it. And 10 years is not that long ago when it comes to governmental matters.

The second article you cite is from the Times, in 2008. It deals specifically with the n(for example) in the Scottish NHS. Interestingly, it goes on to set out the appeal mechanisms and notes that (for example) nearly all of those in Mid Essex were then given the requested treatment.
Now I have to question your reading comprehension. It's not primarily about Scotland. And the only thing it says about Mid Essex is this
Figures obtained from 62 trusts show widespread regional variations in the chances of being granted access to these drugs.

Of 25 patients living in Mid Essex who applied for nonapproved treatment, only one had a request rejected, while all three patients who made requests in neighbouring South West Essex were turned down, the Taking Exception report notes.

The only thing it says about appeal mechanisms is this:
NHS trusts have a legal obligation to provide treatments approved by NICE. In the absence of such approval, if a doctor thinks that someone would benefit from a new medication, the patient must appeal to a committee at the local trust, which can choose to fund it as an exceptional case.

Those who are refused must settle for a less effective treatment or pay privately for the drugs – at the risk of having all their other NHS care withdrawn.
The report also has this little gem:
Nationally, the most sought after drug was Sutent (sunitinib), for advanced kidney cancer, one of the four medications rejected by NICE in its draft guidance.

It was also the most commonly denied drug, refused to 119 of the 219 patients who applied for it between October 2006 and last month.
So you can twist and reinterpret it all you want, but it won't change the fact that cancer drugs are denied to people every day.

That this was held up as a scandal in one of the leading UK papers speaks volumes. As I recall, you have been challenged to show that US healthcare insurers provide these medicines as a matter of course. You have failed to do so. So really, not a compelling case there either.
I've already linked to a CIGNA guidance approving lapatinib. Here it is for the drug in question in the article. And CIGNA is one of the worst. Of course, you still won't find it compelling even though it proves my point.

The third source you direct us to is from a letters column in the Guardian and appears to be written by some big names. Alas, it provides no data on evidencial sources whatsoever. Bit hard, therefore, to judge whether it's an accurate reflection or not.
Some of the biggest names in UK Medicine and they are echoing exactly what I'm saying here. They live your system everyday and know it better than any of us on here. You can dismiss them if you want, but that's just your ideology talking.

The final article you refer to is from 1999. The last time I looked, that was some 11 years ago. The headline looks very compelling until you read the report and discover that the group complaining about lack of access to these drugs is "sponsored by 10 pharmaceutical companies". Well, that makes them absolutely neutral then, eh?
Again, you can dismiss the report, which was published in a peer-reviewed journal, if you want to. Doesn't make it any less true.

So is that the best you can do XJX? Let me remind you: half the cost, every single permanent resident covered, comparable clinical outcomes.
Now it's your turn. Cite me an article, journal, etc. that shows NHS has comparable clinical outcomes. Not life-expectancy, not infant mortality. Clinical outcomes.

Better yet, cite me some real evidence that shows the NHS covers everyone's medical needs equally throughout the country.

I won't hold my breath.
 
You're in Texas, I am in California. Seems there's a difference. It might have to do with all those under/non insured people who are currently abusing the system or relying on government aid. Just like you said they should.
That's why we should allow people to buy insurance across state lines. Bigger risk-pool, lower costs. And I never said anyone should abuse the system.

And for the record, I have spent HOURS trying to find affordable insurance. I've researched every company and numerous self-insured options including co-ops and the groups that have been started up for free-lancers. So no, it's not that I would "rather just whine" but thank you so much for the insinuation.
Well, you are stuck in Cali and the economic mess that goes with it. Move to Texas. It's like a whole 'nother country!
 
The first article you cite, from the IEA healthcare unit, is 10 years old and prior to major increases in NHS funding
And 10 years is not that long ago when it comes to governmental matters.




The final article you refer to is from 1999. The last time I looked, that was some 11 years ago. The headline looks very compelling until you read the report and discover that the group complaining about lack of access to these drugs is "sponsored by 10 pharmaceutical companies". Well, that makes them absolutely neutral then, eh?
Again, you can dismiss the report, which was published in a peer-reviewed journal, if you want to. Doesn't make it any less true.

This is clearly willful ignorance at this point. (Oh, how I love watching people progress from genuinely ignorant to willfully so.)
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/01/health/policy/01swiss.html?pagewanted=all



Insurance companies aren't allowed by the government to make any profit on basic plans. Clearly, this is the free market at work.



More proof of how the free market keeps care affordable.



What was that you said about government not being needed to provide health care?
I never said that the government wasn't needed, Kelly. I said the government should not be the People's doctor. There needs to be some balance between the need to regulate and free market principles. Switzerland is but one country who is doing this fairly well.
 
I never said that the government wasn't needed, Kelly. I said the government should not be the People's doctor. There needs to be some balance between the need to regulate and free market principles. Switzerland is but one country who is doing this fairly well.

So you'd be fine with all those government interventions? You'd be ok with us perfectly emulating their system?
 
I never said that the government wasn't needed, Kelly. I said the government should not be the People's doctor. There needs to be some balance between the need to regulate and free market principles. Switzerland is but one country who is doing this fairly well.

LOL! Uh dude, Switzerland's health insurance system is HEAVILY regulated by "The government". If it wasn't, it wouldn't be the universal system it is today. If need be, I can run down all the regulations they maintain to make their system work.
 
This is clearly willful ignorance at this point. (Oh, how I love watching people progress from genuinely ignorant to willfully so.)

How so? The report was published in a peer-reviewed journal. It details exactly what I've been saying. So how am I willfully ignorant again?
 
LOL! Uh dude, Switzerland's health insurance system is HEAVILY regulated by "The government". If it wasn't, it wouldn't be the universal system it is today. If need be, I can run down all the regulations they maintain to make their system work.

Balance, dude . . . balance.

And I'm not suggesting we emulate every aspect. There are some good things there and bad things.
 
I never said that the government wasn't needed, Kelly.

<snip>

If I was you I'd get on to your insurer and ask for a full neurological examination and a MRI scan*. You appear to be suffering from short term memory loss.




*An MRI scan probably isn't required, but your doctor probably has shares in the facility or gets a kickback for refering patients to it.
 
Then tell me, what aspects should we emulate? Details my boy, details...


WILD guess here.

Keep the private insurance (personal responsibility!) part.

Nix the subsidies for 40% of the population, price caps on drugs, ban on profit on basic plans, etc. You know, the stuff that makes it cost half the price it does here.
 
Well, son, I like:

Decisions are between the doctor and patient
Compulsory basic insurance (maybe a bit more restrictive than theirs)
Subsidies to help lower-incomes afford the insurance
Cost-sharing to lower costs
 
WILD guess here.

Keep the private insurance (personal responsibility!) part.

Nix the subsidies for 40% of the population, price caps on drugs, ban on profit on basic plans, etc. You know, the stuff that makes it cost half the price it does here.

He reminds me of someone a while ago I was talking to here about the Swiss system. I had asked him if he'd like the Swiss version of universal health care, and he actually said yes (he's a conservative), however, he said he'd nix EVERYTHING that made it universal, (while thinking it'd still be universal, because you know you can remove someone's heart, and they'd still live just fine without one, right?) (community rating, ban on for profit health plans, drug negotiation, etc.)but just keep the subsidy part, essentially letting private insurers charge more and more, and get more subsidies. Like Obama/RomneyCare ;)
 
You have to have FORTY THOUSAND DOLLARS laying around for that plan to make sense. The deductible alone is TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS for a family.

As I read it, all three members have to exceed the $7,500 deductible. It doesn't look like just one person having $50K in health care would qualify. That is truly catastrophic.
 
If I was you I'd get on to your insurer and ask for a full neurological examination and a MRI scan*. You appear to be suffering from short term memory loss.




*An MRI scan probably isn't required, but your doctor probably has shares in the facility or gets a kickback for refering patients to it.

And if I were you, I'd get back to your childhood teachers as they've obviously left out the reading comprehension part.

If anyone is getting kickbacks for referrals, they are breaking the law.
 
Well, son, I like:

Decisions are between the doctor and patient
Compulsory basic insurance (maybe a bit more restrictive than theirs)
Subsidies to help lower-incomes afford the insurance
Cost-sharing to lower costs

What do you NOT like?
 
Well, son, I like:

Decisions are between the doctor and patient
Compulsory basic insurance (maybe a bit more restrictive than theirs)
Subsidies to help lower-incomes afford the insurance
Cost-sharing to lower costs

What about community rating? Ban on insurance companies from making a profit on basic health plans, drug negotiation? Remember, if you even remove one critical part of the ecosystem, it may very well tumble, and not be the "universal system" it is. You're essentially describing Obama/RomneyCare So I guess you liked the PPACA then?
 

Back
Top Bottom