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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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And here I thought that was a song about sex and only real weirdos thought there were hidden meanings in it about anything else.

Is there anything you should be telling us about regarding your fascination with the theories of Charles Manson? :p

For one, there is no evidence linking Manson himself with the crimes. :confused:

Heck, he can't be guilty, he wasn't even there! :eek:

Oh, and he liked the Beatles. :rolleyes:

Sound familiar? :p
 
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I hope I have this right, but I think you have totally missed the context in which this mole has appeared.

All we have at the moment is an assertion that the computer evidence will show this. None of us have seen this computer evidence. No computer evidence that is going to be presented can definitively show that there was human interaction in such black and white terms that no interpretation is required. The log may say that the screensaver activated, or did not activate at certain times, that certain files last access times fall during the crucial period. All of this requires interpretation, just like the knife, the bra clasp and everything else before any kind of agreement (if such things are possible) can be reached on what it means.

As I may have said before, I long ago ceased to hope for agreement with the-community-who-think-on-the-whole-that-guilt-is-proved-beyond-reasonable-doubt. Agreement can be forestalled forever by the other participant simply refusing to agree regardless of the evidence or arguments presented.

For example one might say "Yes, well, we have proof of human interaction with a computer. But that proof requires interpretation. For example I could interpret it to mean that Raffaele and Amanda killed Meredith with a remote-controlled knife using the internet. Take that, inference to best explanation! Your interpretation is no better than mine!".

There's really not much to say to a person who has been cornered into that kind of blatant irrationality. All you can do is highlight the problems with their position and move on.

But didn't Raffaele say that he could be sure that Amanda went out because he was asleep. The point that I think your mole was trying to make before you waked it was that you seem to be claiming that Raffaele could be sure if Amanda went out the following morning, around 7am say, as he was asleep. Is this what you think he means?

What else do you think he could have meant?

Bear in mind that Raffaele, if he is innocent, doesn't know Meredith's real or alleged time of death until he hears it from the police. It's just bad luck for the community-who-might-or-might-not-believe-whatever-they-read-at-TJMK that Raffaele's big "admission" has no relevance at all to the murder since he wasn't asleep at the time Meredith was actually murdered.

Is it agreed by the guilters that there was a conspiracy beforehand to commit murder, or are you being a bit silly?

Well of course not. Have you forgotten that the guilters (I borrow your term) have no coherent theory of the crime at all? They cannot all agree that the murder was premeditated if they cannot all agree on any theory at all.

Speaking broadly the guilters are caught in a bit of a fork when it comes to premeditation. The murder was typical of disorganised and unpremeditated crimes, the sainted Massei and Mignini plumped for fairy stories that labelled the murder as unpremeditated and there's not the slightest skerrick of evidence of premeditation or indeed any contact at all between Amanda and Raffaele on one hand and Rudy Guede on the other. Thus they have strong reasons to go with various stories that make the murder spontaneous and unpremeditated.

The problem though is that if the crime was unpremeditated the guilters have an impossible task in explaining away the computer evidence, including the fact that Amanda and Raffaele claimed that they watched Stardust that night and handed over proof to the police, who erased the data and then destroyed the hard drive for good measure. Maybe if Raffaele was a clever computer hacker who planned out the murder in advance he could have faked all that, but if the crime was unpremeditated and there is computer evidence putting Raffaele and Amanda somewhere else at the time of the murder then it becomes very hard to see how they could possibly have been involved.

I've seen a few of the lunatic fringe guilters speculating about rape plots hatched between Rudy and Amanda in advance, but there's zero evidence of any such thing.
 
You might not have learned about them in second year law, but then again there are lots of things about science, logic and reason they don't have room to squeeze into the undergraduate law curriculum.

Well, to be fair, I did a BSc degree before entering the Juris Doctor program - even did a few weeks of medical school before being overcome with nausea and heading for a cleaner, easier life with very limited liability and great suits.

Ergo there was a time when I wouldn't have hesitated to call myself "scientifically literate," to borrow your phrase. Calculus, physics, organic chem, genetics, you name it. Hardcore.

Alas, law school kills the 'scientific mind' - it was a truly painful process: I spent most of the first year in a desperate attempt to find order and logic in the morass that is the common law. I used to have dreams about coming up with a systematized/ shared set of symbols that could be applied to the analysis and discussion of case law and the principles therein.

I wanted precision! Formulas, even!

So, in a way, I can relate to your (naive) wish to transform the law into something akin to a scientific discipline.
 
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I bet you'd be no fun at a party. :p

I better not tell you the sorts of things that went on when the U.S.S. Midway (haze grey and underway, homeport Neverdoc Japan!) pulled into Subic Bay. You'd be scandalized to know the rules of the game 'Smile.' Or what a 'cherry boy' got.

Lots of things mommy never finds out about. The world is a far naughtier place than you could ever imagine... ;)

I'm torn between feeling sorry for you and being afraid of you.
 
"Mister" Sollectio is it? Well, then, there, now.

You need to start reading the Court's judgment at page 61:

"...Taciturn, shy, introverted…watched many films…SEX WITH ANIMALSACTIVATED A MONITORING ON THE BOY…HABIT OF CARRYING IN HIS POCKET A PEN-KNIFE…FOUND IN POSSESSSION OF 2.67 GRAMS…"

And check out A. Vogt on the Closing Arument:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/412504_knox20.html

"Mignini …also mentioned Sollecito's alleged past use of cocaine and LSD..."


(You can't mention it in your closing if it wasn't adduced at trial - I'm looking forward to learning the details in this regard.)

Ahh, if only Italian criminal courts worked in the same was as US criminal courts! After all, if this rule were applied in Italy, Mignini wouldn't have been able to change the time of death in his closing argument - pushing it back by some 45 minutes. And he wouldn't have been able to put his imagined words into Knox's mouth during the same closing argument, along the lines of "You are always behaving like a little saint. Now we will show you; now we will make you have sex". Funny old world, isn't it?

But I do like the word "adduced". I'm going to make an extra effort to use it as often as you do :D
 
I suspect that the reason people are inclined -- and encouraged by their lawyers -- to say "I don't remember" at trials and depositions is that the tiniest innocent conflict or discrepancy can be used to impugn anything they say about anything. Most of us don't have a photographic memory, and we particularly don't remember details of our lives that seem trivial at the moment, like what time you played a computer game before you went to bed. Imagine: "What did you have for lunch on Monday, Dec. 3? Do you always have a tuna sandwich for lunch? Why would you remember having a tuna sandwich on that particular day? And what time did you go to lunch? 12:30? But in your previous testimony you said around noon. Which is it, noon or 12:30? Or do you think noon and 12:30 mean the same thing? Maybe you didn't even eat lunch that day! And by the way, please refer to this calendar: What day of the week was December 3? It was Friday, wasn't it? So Dec. 3 wasn't even a Monday, was it? So we can't be sure when you went to lunch, or even if you went to lunch at all, or what day you went to lunch, or when you ate a tuna sandwich, isn't that right? Can you produce a receipt to prove you bought one single tuna sandwich at any time in your life? Yeah, I didn't think so. You're just telling a story here, aren't you? You'll say anything if you think it might help you, isn't that right? In fact there was no tuna sandwich, there was no lunch, and no one knows where you were between noon and 1 p.m. on Dec. 3, isn't that correct?"

It's just easier, and probably more truthful, to just say "I don't remember" or "I don't know." Even if you report your honest recollection, if someone can raise a doubt about your factual accuracy it will discredit almost anything else you say.


That was my original argument, Bob:

It is routine for lawyers to advise their clients to answer that they don't remember, as opposed to trying to guess at a precise answer. It prevents the other side from jumping all over tiny errors as evidence of something or another.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6702421&postcount=23330


I feel certain treehorn will be addressing your post shortly, thus:

But not as opposed to telling the truth about what you can remember.

(Unless the lawyer in question is looking to get disbarred for assisting his/her client to perpetrate a fraud upon the court.)

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6705820&postcount=23460
 
For one, there is no evidence linking Manson himself with the crimes. :confused:

Heck, he can't be guilty, he wasn't even there! :eek:

Oh, and he liked the Beatles. :rolleyes:

Sound familiar? :p

Oh, geez. I walked right into that, didn't I?

I guess I must bow to your knowledge of that psychopath. Should we have that little talk now? :)

(uh, oh...I feel an ambush coming regarding Raffaele!)

Incidentally, do you think they will try the sociopath angle again in the appeal? I'm just curious as motive would appear to be a problem. I realize that it's not entirely necessary to garner a conviction, but one would imagine that might apply mostly to cases where there's actual physical evidence of guilt. I realize they failed in the first trial to produce one that could pass muster with the Supreme Court, but at least Mignini provided a rationale, and offered 'evidence' such as the Daily Mail's infamous 'Streets of Bagdad' piece.

For example, with Rudy Guede having left so much there they didn't even bother to bag and tag most of it, who really needs to know why he did it, he's pretty much gallows bait. BTW, I didn't actually follow that trial very closely, did they determine a motive anyway to lower the burden of proof?

However in the case that the bra clasp and 'murder weapon' are discarded with the enthusiasm they deserve, it would seem to me that a motive would be helpful to the prosecution in convincing jurors who might be non-plussed by the absolute lack of physical evidence of either in the murder room. How do you suppose they'll make their case this time around? I asked Machiavelli and he said they're not bound by the theories of the first trial, and the guy on the IIP site thought they might try a much tamer version of events hoping for a reduced burden of proof--in the realistic sense, not the legal.
 
I'm torn between feeling sorry for you and being afraid of you.

That's OK, I've already decided the next time we feel we need to mess-up some other country real bad the boys in the blue and green suits should stay home. That should please you! That way they can't do anything naughty!

Instead we will just send them lawyers, guns and money. 90% of them in fact. Share the wealth!

Oh, and bodybags, lots of those, you might need them. Addition by subtraction! :D

BTW, what had Raffaele actually been convicted of? That really mattered to you once, that whole 'conviction' thing. Remember? :)
 
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However in the case that the bra clasp and 'murder weapon' are discarded with the enthusiasm they deserve, it would seem to me that a motive would be helpful to the prosecution in convincing jurors who might be non-plussed by the absolute lack of physical evidence of either in the murder room. How do you suppose they'll make their case this time around? I asked Machiavelli and he said they're not bound by the theories of the first trial, and the guy on the IIP site thought they might try a much tamer version of events hoping for a reduced burden of proof--in the realistic sense, not the legal.


Don't hold your breath, Kaosium. I've heard that "law school kills the 'scientific mind' -- "

Although that doesn't explain Patrizia Stefanoni.....
 
That's OK, I've already decided the next time we feel we need to mess-up some other country real bad the boys in the blue and green suits should stay home. That should please you! That way they can't do anything naughty!

Instead we will just send them lawyers, guns and money. 90% of them in fact. Share the wealth!

Oh, and bodybags, lots of those, you might need them. Addition by subtraction! :D

BTW, what had Raffaele actually been convicted of? That really mattered to you once, that whole 'conviction' thing. Remember? :)

:D
 
I wonder if John Kercher and the rest of the Kercher family had to wait until the PMF translation before they could read Massei's motivations report? Or isn't it just slightly possible that either Maresca - or the court itself, or even the British Embassy - arranged for the report to be translated into English shortly after its release in March, so that the victim's family could read and understand the judges' reasoning? Just sayin'....
 
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And check out A. Vogt on the Closing Arument:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/412504_knox20.html

"Mignini …also mentioned Sollecito's alleged past use of cocaine and LSD..."

(You can't mention it in your closing if it wasn't adduced at trial - I'm looking forward to learning the details in this regard.)

"It is Amanda who started the fight , which triggered an unstoppable crescendo of violence, and it is Amanda who plunged the knife into Meredith's neck," Mignini said. "It is Amanda who later covers the cadaver with a blanket -- a form of pietas, of respect for the victim. An unknown male would not have any need to cover the body. As a woman, and friend, she couldn't stand to see that nude, battered cadaver that she was responsible for."

I think Mignini is just making stuff up. I wonder if this is the source of SA's claim of LSD use on the part of Raffaele. I had seen the previous cocaine use mentioned before. The Massei report doesn't mention either. Where does he get the information that Amanda started the fight or that Amanda covered the body? This is pure nonsense.
 
Well that street goes both ways. Poor Amanda, child of divorce. Poor Raffaele, mother died when he was young. We have no idea what crimes they both committed before this incident.

Firstly, I wouldn't equate Amanda and Raffaele's childhoods to that of Guede. However, this has gone past profiling. We aren't trying to pick out the most likely candidate for this crime. Are we? I mean real evidence is the only type of evidence that should be used in court, isn't it?

As for crimes, Raffaele broke into a school, a lawyer's office, and an appartment. In those places he was discovered with a stolen laptop and a stolen kitchen knife.

page 46
These episodes, concerning the Milan nursery school, the burglary in the law office in Perugia and the burglary of Tramontano'ʹs house (although for the last one, the identification of Rudy was expressed only by the phrase "ʺI believe I recognise him"ʺ) reveal obvious and notable differences with respect to the episode concerning

page 47
the broken window in Romanelli'ʹs room; even stronger differences emerge if one assumes that the person who made use of that entry was Rudy Guede.

Even if one accepts that Rudy was the burglar who broke into the law office of the lawyers Brocchi and Palazzoli and into Tramontano'ʹs house, it must be observed that Rudy was not known by these, nor by the director of the nursery school in via Plinio, Milan; this situation is entirely different from the one at via della Pergola (and the difference is not a minor one), where Rudy knew the boys from the downstairs flat and knew Meredith and Amanda, and they knew him.

In the nursery school, there was no breaking and entering and no violence with regard to any objects, or any climbing. In the law office of the lawyers in Perugia, the burglar was able to enter through "ʺa French window opening onto a small balcony overlooking the inner courtyard of the building"ʺ (p. 41 hearing of June 26, 2009), so that he was able to make use of a surface (the balcony) on which he could move with reasonable ease.[...]​

Unlike the prosecution, I find NO reason to dismiss the similarities as unimportant. Conversely, I find NO similarities with the prior history of Amanda and Raffaele that I find significant.
 
I wonder if John Kercher and the rest of the Kercher family had to wait until the PMF translation before they could read Massei's motivations report? Or isn't it just slightly possible that either Maresca - or the court itself, or even the British Embassy - arranged for the report to be translated into English shortly after its release in March, so that the victim's family could read and understand the judges' reasoning? Just sayin'....


I'm sure the family did have to wait for the PMF Gold Edition, John. Just don't tell that to Yummi:

I quote this because there is a point that I can tell for sure about. Albeit I am not a lawyer, my experience of criminal cases is rich of several experiences for various reasons, for my history and and personal interest. What I can tell is the family members are, among all the people involved in a criminal case, the ones who read the file evidence most thorughtly, and especially the ones who read absolutely everything about the experts reports. Always. The family members usually can't stop reading forensic and coroner's reports untill they feel they can have a clear understanding of the facts, almost they learn them by memory. (Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:47 am)

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=223&hilit=mary&start=6500
 
That's OK, I've already decided the next time we feel we need to mess-up some other country real bad the boys in the blue and green suits should stay home. That should please you! That way they can't do anything naughty!

Instead we will just send them lawyers, guns and money. 90% of them in fact. Share the wealth!

Oh, and bodybags, lots of those, you might need them. Addition by subtraction! :D

BTW, what had Raffaele actually been convicted of? That really mattered to you once, that whole 'conviction' thing. Remember? :)

It's before my time I think, but I swear I've heard that song once before (Kevin Klein's character in the movie "Grand Canyon" was singing it in his car, I believe...).


As for Raffaele's street drug problems, see the translation of the Court's judgment p. 62:

"...Carabinieri...station commander...testified that in September 2003...Sollecito was found in possession of 2.67 grams of hashish..."

Ipso facto, there exists a police and/or court record for Sollecito that predates the homicide.
 
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It's before my time I think, but I swear I've heard that song once before (Kevin Klein's character in the movie "Grand Canyon" was singing it in his car, I believe...).


As for Raffaele's street drug problems, see the translation of the Court's judgment p. 62:

"...Carabinieri...station commander...testified that in September 2003...Sollecito was found in possession of 2.67 grams of hashish..."

Ipso facto, there exists a police and/or court record for Sollecito that predates the homicide.

No conviction based on what the Massei report says later:

That said, it should be noted above all that both defendants have no criminal record,
 
Looking at the question of previous LSD use further, SA used this cite as his source:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2922381.ece

In a rambling three-page statement, leaked to the Italian press yesterday

In her statement Ms Knox claimed that Mr Sollecito had confided to her that in the past he had used cocaine and acid and that he suffered from depression.

The problem I have with this cite is that the transcripts of this statement make no mention of cocaine, LSD, or depression.
 
The station commander had a record of some kind to refer to in the course of his testimony, ergo there exists a police record of the incident.

I believe the point Kaosium made in response to you was this:

BTW, what had Raffaele actually been convicted of? That really mattered to you once, that whole 'conviction' thing. Remember?
 
I'm sure the family did have to wait for the PMF Gold Edition, John. Just don't tell that to Yummi:


I quote this because there is a point that I can tell for sure about. Albeit I am not a lawyer, my experience of criminal cases is rich of several experiences for various reasons, for my history and and personal interest. What I can tell is the family members are, among all the people involved in a criminal case, the ones who read the file evidence most thorughtly, and especially the ones who read absolutely everything about the experts reports. Always. The family members usually can't stop reading forensic and coroner's reports untill they feel they can have a clear understanding of the facts, almost they learn them by memory. (Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:47 am)

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtop...ary&start=6500

Is the generalization true that family members learn the details by memory?

No, I think most just want to forget. In Amanda's case, the resolution of the case is vital to all their lives, so they will try to understand the case.

One personality type will try to ignore and forget.

Another personality type will try to learn in response to challenges.

A third type will actively try to homogenize.

People are not created equally and they certainly don't have equal rights (Amanda is in prison)
 
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